1374 25 35718 https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/fd6bfed07e5cbbb0a5a771a0acaeca15.jpg 46badfe1343ded7239c02f0a91ca8cf8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herb Parker Postcard Collection Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photographic Postcard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Herb Parker Postcard Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource COPYRIGHT NOT EVALUATED Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Title A name given to the resource Red Banks, looking East, near Edinburg Va. Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County (Va) Shenandoah River, North Fork (Va.) Rivers-Virginia-Shenandoah County Description An account of the resource Postcard with a colorized photograph showing "Red Banks" along the Shenandoah River. The photograph looks east. Red Banks is an area on the Shenandoah River located adjacent to US Route 11 just north of Mt. Jackson Virginia and south of Edinburg Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Williamsport Paper Co., Williamsport Pa. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1920 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 505 Postcards Red Banks Rivers Shenandoah Shenandoah County Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/77e8f4b884fe7182c59131adca6fdec4.jpg 3b4e4fc07b254aef84892dee155934f9 https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/242f462206bac46b205483b32bc15d3c.jpg 10bf25708a9d2f7b06115a9dacd20b21 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Woodstock Va Aug. 15 1889. Mr. Richard Newand Dear Sir: Mr. David Hottel & Myself have been appointed a committee to investigate & make settlement of the debt of Lutheran Church to you & get all information on the matter we could & then meet you as soon as it is convenient for you to meet us & endeavor to make a friendly settlement of this complicated matter. We have seen parties that know about it and would like to meet you next September Court-day & state the matter to you in person. Very truly your Jno. L. Wisman. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Correspondence Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Letter, John Wisman to R.D. Newland Subject The topic of the resource Newland, Richard D. (1854-1905) Wisman, John Lutheran Churches-Virginia-Shenandoah County Description An account of the resource Envelope and letter written by John Wisman of Woodstock to R.H. Newland of Hamburg Virginia. Dated August 15, 1889. The letter concerns a construction debt owed by Emanuel Lutheran Church in Woodstock to Newland. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wisman, John Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Folder 2.14 Letter, James Wisman to Richard Newland referencing debt of Lutheran Church, August 15 1889, R.D. Newland Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 15 1889 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19-0815-001 19-0815-002 Churches Letters Lutheran Shenandoah County Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/b7d3ed98f08c1766a30a9d4c4b2ad2f6.jpg b18299804b499503ddce9d8f63275cfc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herb Parker Postcard Collection Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Herb Parker Postcard Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Not to be republished without permission Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Language A language of the resource English Title A name given to the resource Pool, Sky Chalet Subject The topic of the resource Sky Chalet (Shenandoah County Va.) Description An account of the resource Postcard showing the pool at the Sky Chalet resort in Basye, Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WM. A Grubb Co. Inc., Norfolk Va. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 611 Basye Postcards Resort Sky Chalets Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/afae67f410bb1c8fd44d7bc2d5ca918b.jpg bf710229ac823a9fb4514abda99d488f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herb Parker Postcard Collection Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photographic Postcard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Herb Parker Postcard Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource COPYRIGHT NOT EVALUATED Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Title A name given to the resource Sky Chalet, Macanie, Virginia Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County (Va) Resorts - Virginia - Shenandoah County Basye (Va) Description An account of the resource Postcard showing "Sky Chalet," a lodge and resort located in southwestern Shenandoah County. As of 2022 it was located on Sky Chalet Lane. At the time of the postcard's production is maintained a Macanie Postal Address but that post office has since closed. The building, which still stands, is now associated with the Basye community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WM. A Grubb Co. Inc., Norfolk Va. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 614 Macanie Postcards Resort Sky Chalets Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/264ff2b1108cc6a390aa6819123b4c32.jpg a5c4a57d04387cc4ad92e1ac02c2b488 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herb Parker Postcard Collection Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Herb Parker Postcard Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Not to be republished without permission Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Language A language of the resource English Title A name given to the resource Sky Chalet Subject The topic of the resource Sky Chalet (Shenandoah County Va.) Description An account of the resource Postcard showing the entrance to the Sky Chalet resort in Macanie Virginia (now Basye, Virginia) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WM. A Grubb Co. Inc., Norfolk Va. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1958 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 618 Macanie Postcards Resort Sky Chalets Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/27c2940b41b69915bf76cfaf7cf804da.jpg 6d501587e59c2a01e8f1366c8721693a Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Broadsides Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Woodstock Academy Semi-Annual Exhibition Broadside Subject The topic of the resource Private schools - Virginia - Woodstock Theatrical productions - Virginia - Woodstock Exhibitions - Virginia - Woodstock Description An account of the resource Broadside advertising the Woodstock Academy's " Semi-Annual Exhibition," dated February 15-16 1827. The exhibition appears to have included a variety of theatrical productions such as monologues and numerous lectures. The Woodstock Academy was a private school for men in Woodstock Virginia during the first part of the 19th century. It was located on East Court Street near what was the Woodstock Presbyterian Church in 2023. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock Academy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived "Woodstock Academy Program and Letter," General Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 15 and 16, 1827 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 23-0720-001 Schools Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/0702217d52205b34cceb0b6cf4a8e750.png bd71aca6785a2f6764b56b4a11964ae0 https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/4a729a5562b61411c41e59ade0006049.png d9c34340446757f98aa777bb6062fc7c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Woodstock Brochure Subject The topic of the resource Woodstock (Va) Description An account of the resource Brochure published by the Woodstock Chamber of Commerce highlighting the town's amenities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock Chamber of Commerce Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Herb Parker Collection, Series V, Box 2, Folder 2.32 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Unknown Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Shenandoah County Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/30881ebe6e157cd2923f411935d825e1.jpg 071701d5ee2020be8661110dcfb2093b Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Color photographs Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Highway Post Office Bus Subject The topic of the resource Woodstock (Va) Highway post offices Description An account of the resource Color photograph of "Highway Post Office One" passing the Shenandoah County Courthouse in 1988. The Highway Post Office was inaugurated in 1941 with a Washington DC to Harrisonburg VA route. In 1988, the Smithsonian and US Postal Service recreated this event with the original bus. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock Chamber of Commerce Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived US Post Office Highway Post Office Bus, May 1988, Box 9, Woodstock Chamber of Commerce Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 1988 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 23-1130-001 Buses Post Office Shenandoah County Vehicles Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/28c3ef8e327e6b30d1731f2aa97c6dfb.jpg 4f7362554e19575932bcc3711c03ee6d Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photograph Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Woodstock High School Dance Club Subject The topic of the resource Woodstock High School (Va) Bowman, Mary Blair (1909-1961) Description An account of the resource Photograph, taken from a 1951 Woodstock High School Yearbook, showing members of school's "Dancing Club" dancing. The caption indicates it was sponsored by Mary Blair Bowman. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock High School Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Pillar 1951, Yearbook Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1951 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Dances High School Schools Shenandoah County Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/589731335557678099ef00f6b4d5c939.jpg 427a2cc765720564ca4269099ed05a52 https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/d3b5ebebf60d113da51c0b25e270e6cf.jpg 3c6d98046eb32b21786475b5b817626a https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/6d90f41d8518a7c0fa22a32298c3372e.jpg 72d2db0ac807daa703ac7675a158b73f https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/e52bad4f72ea4bfb4c957bd6bd9c5a2d.jpg 0e59f8252a31b0ead43355d69d1afeae Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource "Sez Who" Subject The topic of the resource Public schools - Virginia - Woodstock Newspapers - Virginia - Woodstock Description An account of the resource A November 4, 1936 edition of the "Sez Who," a newspaper published by the students of the Woodstock High School in Virginia. The newspaper contains information about upcoming events, school activities, and local advertisers. The name Margaret Hoffman is written on the top right of the first page. The paper was issued to her. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock High School Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Folder 3.13: Woodstock High School "Sez Who" Newspaper, November 4 1936 - June 2 1937, Series II: Documents, Margaret Hoffman Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 2, 1936 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 23-0602-002 23-0602-003 23-0602-004 23-0602-005 Newspapers Shenandoah County Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/eb8692691ca975674bf0546b36b2890e.jpg 6b7e334d3c9e696cc1d896a12dbfb41a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herb Parker Postcard Collection Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Herb Parker Postcard Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Not to be republished without permission Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Language A language of the resource English Title A name given to the resource Dorthy's Inn Subject The topic of the resource Dorthy's Inn (Shenandoah County Va) Description An account of the resource Postcard with a drawing of Dorthy's Inn located just south of Woodstock Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock Printing Co., Woodstock VA Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 436 Dorthy's Inns Postcards Shenandoah County Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/c8d3859288e63ded59d1258cc55b554e.jpg 7dff9390799a38aa699567b3c0aa7ebf https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/a85c15e60f5b72a6a0fd94210f285c97.jpg 7ea3ada0022c5fa3b0c127ef084195b3 https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/d72cc172a1bb8e74089379b8eba2315f.jpg 25d6782c379a8b4a6be6c4593ebf28d0 Physical Object An inanimate, three-dimensional object or substance. Note that digital representations of, or surrogates for, these objects should use Moving Image, Still Image, Text or one of the other types. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shenandoahopoly Subject The topic of the resource Woodstock Rotary Club (Va) Shenandoah County (Va) Business enterprises-Virginia-Shenandoah County Description An account of the resource "Shenandoahopoly" Board game. Produced in 1989 as a fundraiser for the Woodstock Virginia Rotary Club. The places on the board bear the names of local businesses at the time. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Woodstock Rotary Club (Va) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived "Shenandoahopoly," by Woodstock Rotary Club, 1989, Valley Business Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Gameboard Business Games Shenandoah County Virginia Woodstock https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/6dc34dd3ca35a7755cc0878043cda5c3.pdf 8fffa64a322b7dc9f72a7323e66aa3a3 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript 16-003 Interviewer: Zach Hottel, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library Interviewee: Delois Warr From Mount Jackson, Virginia Subject: Integration, Segregation, Shenandoah County Public Schools (VA) February 5, 2016 3:00 PM Zach: This is Zach Hottel with the Truban Archives at the Shenandoah County Library. It is February 5, 2016 at 3:00 PM. I am here with: Delois: Delois Warr from Mount Jackson, Virginia. Zach: We are going to talk a little bit about segregation and integration in Shenandoah County. I have asked her to start off with a little bit about her experience growing up in a segregated school and her experience with segregation. Delois: I went to school at Creekside Elementary School. We had a bus driver from New Market, Virginia who was also a taxi driver so we go to school when we could get to school. I guess he was a volunteer driver, I am not sure how that was, but we had a lot of days missed, a lot of days not getting an education. When I graduated from Creekside Elementary school, I was almost fourteen years old. We still had to wait to get to a high school to have a high school education. So we were home for about two years before my mother decided that she would see that her children got an education. She would take us to Harrisonburg to school. Then she and my dad put in to the Shenandoah County school superintendent that they would like to have transportation rather than use the family owned car that we had to take us to Harrisonburg to Lucy Frances school. At one point we were housed in guest homes in Harrisonburg and my father paid a small tuition for people to keep us. So after my mother got a county car she took about seven of us in a county car to Lucille Sims school in Harrisonburg. When my mother became ill and could no longer drive us we sat again waiting for a driver. So finally my first cousin, my mother's niece had married a young man from Harrisonburg. He moved to Mount Jackson with his wife, they had children, one or two at the time and he started taking us to Harrisonburg in the county car. Then it got crowded in the county car so the county finally gave us a small bus with three windows. The front window, the drivers side window and the passenger side window. They had wooden seats that they had attached to the walls in the back and that where we would sit. My cousin got drafted into the military, that was back in the early fifties. He had to report to the military. So then we were out of a driver again going to Harrisonburg to school. So then Jewell Harsh from New Market she was German descent, she found out what bad treatment we were getting to get an education. She went to the School Board Office of Shenandoah County and offered to drive us to Harrisonburg to get an education. So we went to Sims to continue our education. Very rough time. We would leave very early in the mornings, getting home late in the evenings. When Shenandoah County Schools were out for some reason because our bus was from Shenandoah County we had to report back to Shenandoah County. So we missed a lot of class time, a lot of extra-curricular activities. I was a cheerleader. I had to stay in Harrisonburg with people in order to be a cheerleader. I was on the drill team at school. I had to stay in Harrisonburg with people in order to be in any activity after school hours. Then Jewell Hursh did it for a while and then she got harassed about taking us to Harrisonburg. Then finally my dad had had enough. He had said that he had paid taxes all his life and he was not getting a �fair share of the taxes he was putting into the county. Neither was his chldren getting a fair education. So they decided then to welcome us to the schools in Shenandoah County by way of telling us that we were always welcome that the schools were always Shenandoah County Schools that they did not know why we did not go there. But that was beside the point even though it always was Shenandoah County Public Schools. I can remember seeing the buses come past my house to come pick my neighbor friends that were white children. But they never said, ' Well look it is a public school, why are you children going out of town to go to school? Come on we will get you in to this school. It will take some work.' But once we went there we got along fine, my brother, Teresa Durette, Hetsey Veney and I think Jimmy Regan. We all went there. I am not sure about the others. There was some rough times for me because even in grade school I was a good student and had good grades and everything and even at Sims. Once I came to Stonewall all that just fell. I can remember sitting in the back of the classroom and there was an algebra question to be answered and nobody knew it. The ones that held up their hands did not know it. I held up my hand up for I know fifteen or twenty minutes and finally the teacher told me, " That by law I had to let you answer." That stays with me still today. So by law I did answer and answered it right. And by law I wasn't supposed to have been a teacher but when I came to Stonewall but I had twenty-five credits from in Rockingham County which Stonewall you didn't need twenty-five credits to graduate but when I came to Stonewall I was a junior. For the rest of the day I asked about jobs that I knew that a lot of the kids were getting, after school jobs for half a day of school, half a day work. There wasn't any for us. I stayed in study halls all day long, back to back study halls, helping Caucasian children with homework. Even today I have three that come up to me and tell me that if it wasn't for that they would not have gotten out of school. I appreciate those children that tell me that. Then when it came time for me to get a class ring from Stonewall, you paid half the price in your Junior and then you paid the full price due in your Senior year. When it came time for my Senior year they told they did not have my class ring because my dad never paid. They told my dad that for my brother and I both. So my brother got his in the military and I never got mine and I don't miss it at all. I have knowledge that no one can take away from me, they can have the ring. We had a very few people at Stonewall that were discriminating against us and most of them were the kids were, excuse my expression, from the hills the back roads kids. The town children that I played with all my life never saw me color different. Some of the other children from New Market, they never saw me color different. They sent some National Guards in with us. They weren't used. They weren't needed. Everything went smooth. Only one guy hollered out. "Go back to Africa Niggers", and that hurt me so bad I did not even attend that guy's funeral. Over the years he had gotten nice to us but he just passed away about 2 years ago but I didn't go to his funeral. All those hurts stay with you. People don't realize that racism stays with you if you are a person of color that racism never goes away. The least little thing somebody says to you brings back the old memories. Zach: So you started at Stonewall in 1964, is that right? You were a Junior? Is that right? Delois: Yes Zach: You said they had National Guard there when you went to school? Delois: They sent two with us. They may just have been local policeman but I think they were National Guard. Something like that in case something happened. But it was fine. �Zach: That is interesting. That is not mentioned anywhere else that there were policeman or anything else. Delois: It was fine. That one guy was the only one who said something and I think a couple of his buddies were going "Hey don't do that, we know them. They are our friends." Other than that it was fine like I said. The principal at that time was Ralph Newland. I don't know what happened to my Dad's money but we never got our class rings and I don't want any. The one teacher I still remember his name, Orancey (?) he just died not long ago. I saw this obituary in the paper not long ago, from over in Page County. A couple of other things. I had a home economics teacher and I know her name. She just died. Every time I would make something in Home Economics she would make sure that it wasn't made right, she would keep bringing it back to me and telling me it wasn't right, it wasn't right, and finally a good friend of mine, she just passed away, she worshiped with me at Manor Memorial United Methodist Church. She came up to me one day and said, "I'll fix that for you but don't never let her know." She died just a couple of months ago at 100 years old in the nursing home in Shenandoah County and she never ever knew that Georgia fixed that outfit for me. A couple of other things at Stonewall. We did not have any problems in the cafeteria. We all sat, because our neighbor friends, kids we grew up with, would call out and tell us, "Hey come over here and sit." Zach: So you saw a big difference, I guess, with the students you know, between the ones that lived in town and the ones that lived way out in the country. Delois: The ones that lived in town, I grew up in an all white neighborhood in Mount Jackson, up on Dutch Lane, all white neighborhood. We were the only Black children out there. So it's just like a woman told me the other day I was at a funeral of someone I grew up with. She said, " I am so glad you treat like I am somebody. I said, "You are somebody. Don't never let anybody think that you're not." But it was just that one from out around Orkney Grade someplace out in the hills or something. It was mostly and we say that right today and my mother is eighty-nine and she can tell you it wasn't ever the kids, the young people, that discriminated. It wasn't my mothers neighbors that she grew up with in Mount Jackson. It was the big people, the business people, that are supposed to be putting the world together. What's that song, Come on people now, let's get together, love one another? It was those kind of people, the ones that my dad worked for, the big shot Holtzmans, the Paynes. And you would be surprised at the things my mother has told me, and my dad has told us since we grew up and what we have seen. The people that were discriminating against us were the ones who supposedly my dad employer and gave all his time to them. Chauffeuring them all around to business things in Roanoke, Virginia and other places where he had to go after working all day for them and then taking his time away from his family, his wife and children to chauffer them to business meetings. And they were the ones who made statements that they didn't want their Black and white kids to be going to school together because the black men would be laying up with the white girls and having babies. And it hurts us when we see the white girls hanging onto a Black man's arm today because most of the time it is the white girls hanging on to the Black men not the Black girls on to the white guys. �Zach: Now I am curious a little bit about, you know you said the people that your mother knew that you grew up with and things that were more accepting. What do you attribute that to? I guess, do you think it was because you had a personal relationship, that they knew each other? Delois: Personal. Because my mother knew everybody. My dad grew up in Mount Jackson. My mother grew up in Mount Jackson. She had and still does have lovely neighbors. She has a family that she used to clean for, had 4 girls, Hines. They ran Hardy-Virginia orchard. They were lovely to her. Never words came out of her mouth like came out of some of the old folk's mouths. Now (unintelligible). So anyway, those girls, four girls, Rosemary Rawlings (?) was one of them. They come in three of four times a month and visit my mother and sit with her. Stay hours and hours with her. They send her gifts thru the mail. They come in and make sure she has gotten them. They send her money. Christmas time she gets big bonus checks from them as appreciation for what you did for my mother and for us when we were little children. And then some of the others like a lady one year, she passed away, she used to teach school. Betty Payne. She sent my mother a set of glasses at Christmas. So every year my mother has Christmas dinner so all of us kids were there and Momma says, "I am going to set these glasses out", ( she knows we like to sneak our bottle of wine when she is not looking) "so you all can drink out of them if you all want to." So we were just admiring them. "Mom you mean she gave you these? We bet they weren't intended for you. We bet it was a mistake. They are crystal. They had come from ___?______Rhodes in Charlottesville. a big department store used to be in the old days. She called my mother on the phone 3 days later after this Christmas dinner we had. She said, "Did you get glasses from me?" and my mother said, "yes." She said do you know what they looked like? And of course my mother not having a lot of education said, well the kids all said they looked like crystal. And they liked them and they could not believe that you sent them to me. She said they weren't supposed to go to you they were supposed to go to somebody else. So mom took the glasses up there to show them to her, only one. We told mom, you are only taking one. Because we were grown then, married and grown, and we knew we could stand our ground then. She said,"Oh, they were supposed to be going to so and so, it was somebody right there in Mount Jackson. She showed Mom the box that were supposed to be Mom's and they were plastic. But we kept them. They are still in our house right today. We told Mom, they came to your house. She should have gone over there and made clear where she wanted them to go. There nothing you can do about it now. My mother cleaned there for years and years and I helped my mother clean. Chandelier, get up on nine foot ladders, never gave me anything for helping what my mother could not do when she got up there in age. But people, I talked to a lady yesterday that her mother was a secretary at Valley Fertilizer. She was talking about how well her mother liked may mother. And I said well my mother loved your mother. So it's who my mother associated with, the ones that they did not socialize with, only except for the cleaning, other than the Wallingers and the Hines. My dad at one time did six jobs. He worked for Walter's Restaurant in Mount Jackson. One of his granddaughters told me a couple of months ago, she lives up in Pennsylvania, but she was in the area at the Art Gallery in Mount Jackson, on a Friday night. She said I hated that way my grandfather treated your dad. Your dad worked hard. He worked all day long at the Valley Fertilizer. He worked over there at the Restaurant at night mopping floors and my granddaddy had coming thru the back door and had him sitting in a little bitty booth behind a wall to eat. She said that is why we left this area. It was too much hurting. Then she said I heard about you and my mother was talking about you still living in Mount Jackson. She said I heard �about you and what you are doing and you keep up the good work. She writes me constantly from Pennsylvania. Zach: Now you have mentioned about the restaurant. Were the other restaurants and other things in Mount Jackson segregated? Delois: No. We stood our ground. There wasn't anything they did about it. I guess it was because we were the only Black children in Mount Jackson. My mother's sister had five. My mother had nine. So we were the only Black kids. When we used to walk in with the white kids nobody said anything. So we never was barred from anything. Marion Everly used to run the drugstore in Mount Jackson right across from the Town Hall. We used to have to wait there for our bus to go to Woodstock. We had to walk from Dutch Lane over to wait for our bus. The drugstore had a pretty good eave out from it that would keep you blocked from rain or bad weather. He would let us stand in front of it until opening time when he would walk down from Gospel Street with his Derby hat on and his trench coat. He would go in and turn the lights on and do what he had to do. When it came time for customers to come in he would ask us to move. Could you go and stand between Harrison house and the old drugstore? Could you stand there, this might distract my customers. Zach: That was the way it was. Delois: That was the way it was. But I mean we always went in restaurants. We went in with the white kids. I guess they thought we were white. They didn't say anything. And like I said they knew us , they knew my parents. I don't know why Joe Walters had my dad eat in the kitchen. See I didn't know that until his granddaughter told me. I knew that my dad worked over there because he got scalded one time with hot water and I remember he was laid up for years and they thought he was going to lose a leg. We went to the movies in Mount Jackson. Zach: That was going to be my next question. Delois: We didn't have to got upstairs. I have never even seen the upstairs in that movie. We went and we sat with the white kids that we grew up with in town. We walked in with them and sat anyplace. Zach: Do you think that was typical of the other Black people in Mount Jackson? Delois: I think the reason was that there wasn't a lot of Blacks and we weren’t the kind of Black families that were loud. In those days our parents were, on both sides my mother's sister and her husband we were all Christians. We weren't the loud kind of Black children. I think if had of been Woodstock or Strasburg where there were more Blacks. I don't think it would have been like that. But they saw us, it's just like, hey, these are the kids that play with Mary Gordon's kids and Alma Estep's kids. Joe Estep, he ran a wrecker service and a service station, we played with all those kind of kids that owned things in town. That something we couldn't understand and that is something white children couldn't understand. If we could go every place all over town with them, why couldn't we go to school with them? They always asked that question. On Ox Road, Barbara George(?), she's Barbara Lam, she said," I still can never get over how we all played together but you all had to go to separate schools." And I said, “Neither could we." But I did like the superintendent of Shenandoah County was Dr. Hylton. I remember the last name. I remember �him saying that nobody ever stopped the children from going. That is what he told my dad. It was always Shenandoah County Public Schools and public would have meant every child. But I am proud of what I learned at Lucy F. Sims School(?). I didn't learn anything at Stonewall because at the time like I said when you aren't treated right you don't want to learn anything. I self-taught myself over the years. Zach: Why do you think there was such a difference in attitudes between the generations? You know you said the older people were more discriminatory than the younger people? Delois: I think just like today when people talk about the rebel flag and the Civil War. I think it was how they were brought up and how they were educated. I really do. I think the Holtzman men because they were friendly and nice. Bill Holtzman's dad and Bill Holtzman's uncle, ran Valley Fertilizer, they were the owners of it. I think it was their generation, how they were brought up because Bill Holtzman wasn't like that, he has never been like that. It just better and better with education. Those two little fat men, they reminded me of tubs. It was what they were brought up with. Zach: Now you said you went to Creekside Elementary in Woodstock. Can you talk a little bit about that. What type of school it was. Delois: Ok. That is really sad. Now don't you cry. I did this at Stonewall and some of the kids were crying. It's still standing on Water Street. If you go by you can see it , no, I think my husband said it has been town down. But it was a one room school. It had a coat room, a bath room, and a kitchen. Once or twice a year we would bring in our own vegetables, our own food, and have our end of the year dinner. We had one teacher. It was two sisters came from Shepherdstown, West Virginia. One taught at Strasburg and one came to Woodstock and they boarded in Woodstock and Strasburg with people. It was really tough. These were older ladies. They had a hundred kids to one room. We had to help teach. The older you got you had to help teach So when you were in the seventh and sixth grade you had to help teach the smaller kids. You graded papers. You did almost everything they did but you weren't a teacher. The floors were wooden. The maintenance men from the public schools, which were white men and they would put, and my cousin and I talked about this just the other day, we sat in those rooms it would smell like kerosene. It was like they would put oil or kerosene on the floors to give them a coating after our feet had scuffed them. And that is what we would breathe. I am surprised I am still living today at seventy-one years old. We had a pot-bellied stove. The teacher had a desk. The Lantz men would come and had a little bitty old case with a lock on it. We would earn things of the Lantz things for what we helped the teacher to do. I guess she paid for them. She would give the snacks if we helped her do stuff. Our books were raggedy, I mean, that why I say I self-taught myself. They were raggedy. It was what the white kids didn't need anymore. No covers to them. No backs to them. Pages missing. We sat at a long table. When you had social studies and if you were in 6th and 7th grade you did it together. We had to pass the book around. The teacher would say, " Now you read Page 6 and you pass it around and then Page 7 and it went all the way around like that. It was awful. Our education in grade school was awful. We did have a far better advantage at Sims although we had what the white kids didn't need anymore, it was the same thing. But it was better. We didn't have to pass the books around. We had to share them a lot. Somebody would have to take it home and read it and take their notes and then bring �it back and somebody else would take their notes. That is how we got our education like that. But Creekside we didn't have books. When we went on field trips, my dad did it with the Valley Fertilizer truck, can you imagine. Do you know what those trucks looked like in the old days? Zach: I’m sure. Delois: 1947 trucks. Fertilizer been on them. Dad would scrub them, try to get the smell off of them. Put a tarp on them, had an old canvas tarp. Dad would pick us up at Creekside and take us on an end of the year picnic at Elizabeth Furnace or Camp Lupton and let us come out there and do that or Camp Strawderman. Out desks were old and beat up. Our mended clothes, my mom had to mend our clothes, we were like the Waltons, because the desks were old, they had the little ink wells. The ink bottle would spill and come all out on your clothes because in those days we had the ink pen that you squeezed that little plastic thing to get enough ink in it and put the top on it. So anyway like I said we didn't have many books. Our report cards were used over again. Our teacher had something, it was called Witeout when I was teaching but this something in liquid form that smelled exactly like peroxide. And she if I had a report card and was giving me my semester grades and she ran out of room for writing something, she would take this little brush out of this little bottle and she would go across it and it would dissolve the writing. Then she would write over it. You would never believed it. People don't understand why when black people when something goes wrong like the Ferguson thing everybody gets really bent out of shape. It brings back that old stuff. Creekside was just awful. We were cramped in that little school at our desks. She used to push all the desks to one side and then you would have a wide aisle at certain things but then you had to ask somebody else to move so you could get out. Good thing I was skinny. It was just awful. Zach: So you saw a big difference between that and the white schools. Delois: Yes. What story do I want to use? Characteristics of the building. I am going to tell you the truth. I learned more in a Black school than I ever would have in a white school. White schools don't teach. I taught up at Ashby-Lee. I saw a lot of playing. That is why kids can't read right today. The teachers played with the kids. They didn't know where the kids were half the time. They are out of the classroom. The white kids have freedom. We didn't have freedom which probably your grandparents didn't. When they went to one-room schools. You were taught. You followed the rules. You had more values that you lived by. You educated yourself. But now the kids, I went to the library in Mount Jackson last night. I went home and told my husband, you know what, I saw 6 computers in the library. I went over there at 7:30. I went to Town Council. I had a meeting with the Mayor. I told my husband I went in about 6:30 there sat all these Mexican kids with the headphones on at a computer. Another child I found out later was________? was a volunteer in there last night, his child. A couple times I went back over and someone else was in at Bucky's, cause when the Mayor has a meeting you wait your turn and so I went back to the library and they were still sitting. Matter of fact I said, I excused myself, and I said, " Bucky when this client is ready to leave can you have her stop in the library and tell her that you are ready for me and I won't keep coming back." He said that was fine. I went back, I went back, I went back. Finally I stayed at the library and worked on the computer. Finally when I got done it was like ten minutes to eight. That is when those kids get up. I said to my husband, I go to that library done there all the time, I never see a child get a book. They are all �on a computer. I said to my husband, I don't know who to tell this to, but the man he wasn't very friendly until he found out I wasn't going to (play?) with him. He had glasses and a beard. I walked in the first time and asked him to check my card to see if it was still up to date because a lot of times I won't go to the library down there for a lot of reasons, and my card would run out and they would have to renew it. I guess it was his wife, had a toddler with her, cause I asked the little girl how old she was. She was four. She was up on the counter. When you check in and ask questions there is this woman and this child that was sitting on the counter. The man checked my card then finally he went over to the copy machine to do something and that same kid went over there and started messing with something. He told you can't do that. And I am thinking when I volunteered nobody in my finally was ever behind the counter and I was the only one behind the counter. Then when the kids all got up from the computers and left. I told my husband, "Guess what when they all stood up they stretched and they yawned. That shows me how long they long they had been sitting there playing games at a computer. Now when Ann first opened it up, I started the first children's story hour there. But I gave it up because I had. See we still go thru that with racism. Racism is still alive today. I had somebody that was always coming in. I would go down and prepare my story hour and get it all set up and everything. And I go down to do it the day I am to do it and somebody else is there doing it. Hey, I worked hard on that section for my story hour. What are you doing? So I told Ann that's it. When you leave I am leaving , so I don't do anything down there anymore. I told my husband when I was down there I encouraged children to read and get books. I don't understand they just go in and use the computer and don't use your library for nothing else. I heard they don't use them that much at school, little kids. High school kids I think use them a lot. But our grandkids in our family, my grandkids, my sister's grandkids, my brother's grandchildren, they read. They going to read. They are going to use their library wisely. It is not just a computer game thing. ZACH: I am a little curious. You said your dad the reason that he sent you to Stonewall. You said he paid taxes. To me a very practical reason why he sent you to school versus maybe more of a trying to prove a point. Is that you think that is right that maybe the reason your family wanted you to go to school was maybe more for the practical reason? Delois: No because my older sisters, older than me, two older than me wouldn't do it. They wouldn't go to the white schools. And my sister still tries to drill it into my head. " I am so glad that, she calls it ____?, my school. That's my alma mater." Then I have some Black people that have retired that live in New Market. The class from Stonewall wanted me on their committee, high school reunion. I was on it until this Black girl moved back here from Maryland after being gone for forty some years. My husband says your letting them turn your head against everything. She came one night and she said, " I see racism still around here and I am not going to be a part of none of that stuff. So I haven't been to any meetings. My husband says you are letting her turn you against things. But, it is. I see racism and I try to overlook it until someone else sees it and dwells on it, and starts putting things in my head. And all those old feelings come back. Zach: Now I am curious a little bit about, Stonewall, the name being associated with the Civil War and things. Did you then or maybe even now. What is your feeling? Delois: When we went there we didn't associate him with the Civil War. We associated him with the man on the horse who rode thru Mount Jackson as we were told we when we were kids. �Mounted his horse. That was probably a joke. They say that is were Mount Jackson came from but that is not where it came from. Well I don't know because it used to be Mount Pleasant. I did a history of Mount Jackson that we just looked at him as somebody who rode a horse and stopped here and did whatever he had to do and went on about his business. But now my daughters have all moved from here and my sons all want to live here. My daughters live over on the east coast. They can't stand white people now and they went to Stonewall. Now mind you they____ but they cannot stand white people. My one daughter just hates them. She doesn't come back for her class reunion. She doesn't want to meet anybody. When I was teaching at AshbyLee she had stopped there one day on her way in on a Friday and thought I was going to leave when she stopped there and just say ok I am going home early. I said come in and meet some of the teachers. "Momma I do not want to meet any of those white teachers. I had enough of them when you all made us go to school here. This is what they tell us, we made them go to school here. My other daughter her second son just graduated a year ago. Five scholarships. That is around Richmond Virginia. She said mom she said see what my kids got that I never got at Stonewall. She said I never got a mention. We never got plaques. We never got anything. So when it came up to Hall of Fame none of us Black kids ever got in it. She said you see what my kids got now. Her other son is sixteen and she sends me all these things in which he is mentioned. Honorable mention in Hopewell, Virginia. Town Council had him at a banquet. School Board had him at banquet. He plays football. Her other little boy he is fourteen, he gets his picture like when the realtors having a picture ad in the newspaper they use her children. She says my kids get an advantage over here, you are not getting anything over there. And you don't. You don't get anything over here but I _____. I don't worry about it. I let it go. But we didn't get mentioned at Stonewall either. I was a cheerleader at Sims. Came to Stonewall, tried out for it up there. And you know what I told them. Ok I understand my legs aren't white enough, that is fine with me though. It is just that and we got kind of upset about Dad sending us there because we did not want to be a part of the whole white thing. The neighborhood kids was fine. The whole white thing, we did not want to be a part of that anyway. But while we were there we thought we should have gotten into something. I was in the drill at school and we had at lot of programs at Sims that we were in, and like I said we had to stay in Harrisonburg in order to be in these things. Got to Stonewall, we was never in nothing. Zach: So none of the Black kids that first integrated at Stonewall were involved in any of that, extracurriculars. Delois: That is why they all left. Everybody left but me. Everybody. I am the only one. Now they are back. Jimmy Rankin is back, Bobby Rankin was back but he just passed away back in October. Theresa is back. Alfreda passed away in July she was back, she went to school with my sister. They all moved and I am the one who stayed back. And they ask me how do you get to stay back here with the knowledge that you__________ a stupid man?? And I said what do you mean by that? He worked with the highway. he came here working with the big construction company that put 81 thru from New Market to Edinburg. He traveled with them for awhile. They put 211 and 64 in and a bypass in over in Culpeper and something else over in Wardensvillle WV. I said this is a way for me to travel and see the world. Oh well. But he wanted to stay in Mount Jackson. So he stayed in Mount Jackson. We got married. He worked for Garrett, Moon, & Poole until for awhile until Poole started calling him names that Black people from the South don't tolerate. He is from Memphis. He told him he said you don't call me those kind of names or �I am walking off this job because I don't intend on being in prison in Virginia for killing a white man for that type of name. So anyway, he was off for maybe 2 months and someone from Dominion Virginia Power told him said that did you know that, and this was in seventy, said that Dominion Virginia Power can't hire any more whites until they hire a black. At that time it was VEPCO. And said go up and put your application in and 2 days later he was hired. But you see how that works because of the law. He worked there for years and years. He did for 31 years ?. There came a couple openings up for different things because he had been there a long time and they hired white boys like Ronnie Hoffman and different ones from around here in Woodstock. Hired them for the job and my husband should have been. It was told to him later by some people from Richmond, some Virginia Power people. He should have had those positions first. He did 33 years, now he won't life a finger for anybody, he only works at the Food Bank at church. My son works there now and they are giving him a hard time. I told my son stick it out. Like I stuck it out with the school system. They gave us a hard time. Another guy Arthur Alsberry they gave him a hard time cause we were only..Arther was a teacher. His mother was a reading Specialist assistant. I was Special Education mostly disturbed assistant. We had a hard time. People don't know the times that we had but I stuck it out and retired 30 some years. Zach: So I was going to ask you about that. As going in working for the school system versus when you went in as a student, what did you still experience a lot of? Delois: Matter of fact I had to sue them to get a job, discrimination. Zach: Oh you did? Delois: And then they gave me every job they could give me. I mean and this is running up and down the road. New Market Middle School, Toms Brook. This is back and forth, back and forth all day long. Then the last job they gave me, they gave me a job riding a __________bus, special education bus from Strasburg to Ashby Lee. But let me tell you how I had to do it. I had to leave Mount Jackson, get in my car and leave Mount Jackson. Park it at W. W. Robinson and get on the bus and ride back to Mount Jackson. Did it make sense? So my sister up in _______ said there are a lot of people up in this city that are highly educated, lawyers in the family that are from Pennsylvania. They will help you. They are not going to do that. So when we put in my discrimination suit. At the time Bob Danley was still Superintendent. He says, "Delois come Monday you don't bring your car to Woodstock anymore and get on that bus, you leave from your house right there in Mount Jackson. Then we a couple of things we had to straighten out, Then Billy Smitherman? was the principal. In 1980 they had an opening there to open up the new classroom for the Ashby-Lee. He said we don't hire parents at a school where the kids are being educated at. We did some more_____? You see that is what you have to watch. They don't know that when discrimination people come around they don't tell you who they are. They can walk in the door and say, 'Oh I am here to look at your library, I am checking out a book and they are watching things. That why I say I am glad Black people educate their kids right. Cause we know a lot of things that white people think that we don't know how to get around. They found out that they had about 5 or 6 teachers there that they had their kids there at the school, teachers and teachers assistants. So then that is when they were running me up and down the road to Toms Brook, 2 hours a day, New Market 2 hours a day, Stonewall 1 hour a day blah, blah, blah. And finally all that got ironed out. So then I had some other little run arounds. But then again I had �two falls at Ashby-Lee and that is what is wrong with my back. The last one was in 1999. Again another teacher from Page County was at WW, I guess he's fired from there. But they had already, Johns Hopkins had already sent a note and everything telling them what was wrong with my spine and everything. And I was off for a year and a half and I went back and did 4 hours a day. I could do it in the mornings or I could do it in the afternoons. And they came up one day and asked me how long will you be like this because I may have to hire somebody in your place. I said I don't know, but I went home and made my phone calls. Had a meeting with a certain lawyer. The day I had the meeting with the lawyer, the lawyer said you do not go back to that school no more. You can go there and get your personal belongings, but you are done with them. So I sued them again. Shenandoah County likes to be sued, I am the person who likes to do it to. I mean if you want to treat me dirty, I can treat you dirty because there is no sense in it. All that is uncalled for. You don' ask a person that has worked all those years, 'How long you going to be like this?'. Ask my doctor. Or ask me and you might ask me, 'can I ask your doctor, or ask me nicely, take me in the office. Don't come in and _________ and ask me, "how long are you going to be like this?' _________? At that time I was Library Assistant, Library Media Specialist Assistant, because of my back so I was more like did remedial work, probably just like you do here all the filing, and the phone calls and the computer and everything like that. So that was my last day at work. Then I had emergency back surgery and my back never ever did get better and still won't get better. But then you got somebody who wants to know how long you are going to be like that so I can hire somebody in your place. So but the reason I didn't go to work at the schools because I thought about how they treated me. I went to work for children. For children's sake. I have a thing on my refrigerator, "I teach for children's sake". It is not about the teachers, it is not about the principals. It is about those poor, lost kids that are lost on the wayside. What does Barack Obama say? __________ left behind. Those kids are left behind. And that is a lot of them kids that are left behind. I have them coming up every day, funerals, and every place. "Are you Mrs. Warr?" Yes. 'Do you remember me?" I don't think so. "If it wasn't for you I probably would never have had an education. I wouldn't be where I am at today." That makes me happy. Zach: That's good. Now I am curious also about churches and how that worked. Did you go to church in Mount Jackson? Delois: The Black church in Mount Jackson. The United Methodist Church in Mount Jackson did not want us. We had two churches in Mount Jackson. Cause there were quite a few people in Mount Jackson way before I was born. But when I was coming along it was just my mom and my dad and my mother's sister and her husband and their five kids. And they had, and it was still a Baptist and a Methodist and a Black schoolhouse was still standing. Phyllis Hall?? was still standing and of course old Dewey Jordan used to be the mayor of Mount Jackson, tore it all down. He didn't have a reason to but he did. But when the Black chuch was torn down, cause we are Methodists, my dad went to Mount Jackson Methodist and asked them about us coming there to worship because at that time my mother and her sister had left because the road took her house when they put the byway going out to 263 so they moved to Front Royal. They said that they didn't know, they would have to have meeting on it and kind of do some discussion on it. So my dad got hold of, cause they still had a Black church at Woodstock. So my dad got hold of the conference and asked where are our records going at from the church and the conference said it goes to the closet church to your home. So my dad went back to the Mount Jackson Methodist. He said well they sent our records over here. And they said well we have to vote on whether we �want to integrate our church. But it was called United Methodist, same way Shenandoah County Public Schools. So the conference called my dad on the phone and even wrote a letter and said New Market Manor Memorial Church in New Market is taking African-American people from New Market free. Just come on in and would you all like to go up there. And that is where we went and that is where we have been. Now I get these people at Mount Jackson Methodist saying, "I heard you sing in the choir. I heard you work with the Children’s ministry." I heard you this and heard you that. "You taking all that up at New Market and you could be doing that at our church." I said, No they didn't need me fifty, sixty, seventy years ago. They didn't need me now. Same way with the Library in Mount Jackson. I worked under Ann Thompson. I left my name down there I don't know how many times that I would like to come one time and do a story with the kids as a guest storyteller. I would like to come in, put books away. Never heard anything from Mount Jackson Museum or Mount Jackson Library. So Karen Whetzel going to let me come up there, still like to read stories to kids. One year I read, when Ann was there I used to do the Dr Seuss program with the school. And I did Socks On?? Dr. Seuss. I did that story one year, and I am not bragging on myself, I had a pack of kids that came to my section because I had over 300 pairs of socks. I went around to all my family and I got knee socks and all color socks and I had them hanging up in my section and then each child could hold on to a sock as I was reading the story. And another lady she had another section in the library for her story, she told Ann, "Did not one kid come to my area." Well you got to prepare for kids. You got to make them excited about coming in that area. When I did summer stories I would lay it out with things about summer. When I did stories on beaches I would lay it out with beach chairs and get some sand and put buckets out. You got to get kids excited about things. They tell me that at church. " You do such children's stories at church. But I have it laid out, I have it visualized for the kids. You can't sit there and give them a children's story and they are looking everywhere else because you are bored. You are just reading something off the top of your head that you don't know what you are talking about and neither do they. Matter of fact I got children’s story ? Valentine 14. I am already working on it. Zach: Now you talked about there not being many Black people in Mount Jackson. Compared to maybe your parents or grandparents lived there. Delois; Yes, my grandparents lived there. Zach: Why do you think so many Black people left Mount Jackson? Delois: You know I am thinking, Mom always told me, and I think it was true, Woodstock was larger and it had more job offerings. Because my grandfather was still there, He died in 1957 when I was little. He was still there but then his brothers and his sisters all went to D.C. or New York, Ohio, Massachusetts and way up in New Hampshire. And then he stayed and then Mom stayed, her and her sister out of her family, their brothers left they went to North Carolina and Pennsylvania. Same way with Dad, Dad had two sisters and brothers, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania. They said they didn't stay, my dad didn't tell us but my uncle did that lives in New Jersey, he told me when he was almost on his death bed that the reason why he left, he was in the military, and he found out that one of their brothers, 9 years old, died in a reformatory school back in the early forties, like 1942-43 because he was blamed for something that a white kid did back in Mount Jackson, that is why he never came back. My dad stayed. My dad was the first �one, he didn't, he let God handle things. He didn't get mad _____? somebody killed my brother blah, blah, blah. But that is what my uncle told me, but my dad never told us that story. Then my dad stayed, my mom stayed. Out of our generation there were nine of us. I am the only one that stayed. I had five. My son is the only one that is here. All of my other kids are gone. Basically there is nothing here for them. My son says that the only reason that he is here, like his dad. He has a good job working with a good company that will supply. Stand up for him with discrimination. If it was any other job my son probably wouldn't stay cause he runs things. He is the only person who runs a backhoe digger that sits those poles in the ground. He did it in Northern Virginia so when they got an opening here in Shenandoah County, about 2 years before he retired, he said, "Rodney why don't you come here and put your application in and he did. If you ever see that Dominion Power truck going by with that backhoe digger and trailer that is my son driving it. He takes this job seriously like his daddy did. My husband did 31 years at Dominion. Zach: So you think most people left because of jobs. Delois: Yes. There weren't any jobs for Blacks unless they were something they wanted to give you. But they would tell you they didn't have any openings but they would give you what they wanted to give you. Now I know that for a fact. That went way back in the sixties. Zach: Now did your parents ever talk about or did you ever experience the more overt types of racism like with the Klan and things like the more physical types of racism? Delois: Never, ever until I restored the cemetery in Mount Jackson. You heard about that project that I did. The Old Historical Black cemetery. The day we had the grand opening of it, you know I live in an all white neighborhood, I live in Dutch Lane subdivision. And my neighbor next door come over early that morning, when I had the grand opening that day at like 2:00. We had a parade in Mount Jackson and the Confederate people welcomed me having a grand opening. Al Sharpe, is that his name?, he come and gave me a nice certificate on what I have done and everything. But that morning my neighbor came over and knocked on the door and he says,"Delois, guess what, I hate to tell you this and I don't like at all, we got up this morning and on my windshield, I was going to 7-11 and get a cup of coffee, Klan flyers were stuck behind my windshield wipers and he said, “I took them down and laid them on my floorboards, went down to 7-11 and they were talking about that everybody got them. Everybody in Mount Jackson got them except me. Somebody knew what house I live in, 2861 cause we didn't get any. Then somebody in town, I don't know who the mayor was at that time, wasn't Dewey Jordan, I can't think who it was, might have been Joe Williams. Joe Williams, he said that they had a heck of a time cleaning the streets up that morning before I even knew about it. That the sheriff and all had to come up and get them all up. They had in doors. We didn't know who the person was as long as they didn't bother me and my family. They can throw all the papers they want to. Just like I said, you can't take knowledge away from anybody. Zach: In one of the interviews I did, they talked about that they used to burn crosses in Woodstock and where they did it but there was never any in Mount Jackson? �Delois: There were never any in Mount Jackson. Mom and Dad never told me anything about that in Mount Jackson. No crosses or nothing. Mom and Dad's house a white man showed it to them and built it for them. It was just a small house. Pete Lonas, he is a prominent man in Mount Jackson, brought us a lot of pictures________? I do a lot of readings about Mount Jackson. I hear this Pete Lonas. I think at one time he owned the Dellinger Funeral Home or he built it. Never heard of any of that. And that was in 2000 can you believe it, that was when I restored that and had the grand opening of the cemetery up there. And then I had a man from Harrisonburg, and he is a prominent business man up there, I see his name in the paper a lot, that called me on the phone and said, "Are you sure that there's some Civil War Black soldiers down in that cemetery?" And I said, " I don't have to answer to you for anything. I got my histories. I know what I got, I know how I researched, and everything and if he wants to go behind me and research he can but don't call and ask me anything, find it yourself. And somebody told me then,_____ Barris?, you ever heard of him? He told me that some of the people don't talk with them because they didn't want me to have this celebration about the cemetery they wanted it to be a forgotten thing. Which it was for years and years all growed up like a jungle. Nobody knew it was up there. It is right behind the Confederate cemetery. And the history behind it, where Holtzman Oil is that old house, Nelson House that was the old hospital during the Civil War and they had some Black soldiers that was on, they man have been canteened??, they may have walked with their mallets?? they may have done something with the war. They were taking them over there and putting them in that cemetery. ___________Barris and I researched and we found it out of a history book. But he told me don't talk with everybody because they don't like you digging up this stuff and recognizing your race or _____that cemetery that is a part of history. I went on and did it, it didn’t stop me. At one time I thought they were going to drive by and shoot thru my windows but that is why we keep our curtains shut. You know we have those things and my husband said, ________you get us killed and everything> But I don't worry about stuff like that. Zach: So that is really all I have question-wise. is there anything else you want to add? Delois: No. That was fine, nice. � https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/231a3820ffe8cfec88601bbd66c9e96d.MP3 e5bf791808b6192e814fe7adfd926d1c Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zachary Hottel Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Delois Warr Location The location of the interview Shenandoah County Library Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound See attached file. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 57:10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource DeLois Warr Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource Warr, DeLois Public schools - Virginia - Shenandoah County Description An account of the resource Oral history interview featuring Delois Warr conducted on February 5, 2016 for the Shenandoah County Library's Black History Month Program. In 1964 Delois became the first African American student to attend what was then Stonewall Jackson High School. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Zachary Hottel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Shenandoah Voices Oral History Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 5, 2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Transcription by Marjorie Hisey Tackett. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 File Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016-003 African Americans Integration Mt. Jackson New Market Schools Segregation Shenandoah County Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/db8bf1c058ab435e27971e4d7a476396.pdf f838a0a55757960c8d5ac97864bd8792 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript 16-0002 Interviewee: Gwendolyn Tolliver Nickens (GN) Interviewer: Zachary Hottel (ZH) Subject: Integration, Segregation, Shenandoah County Public Schools (VA) 2-15-2016 ZH: This is Zach Hottel with the Shenandoah County Library Archives interviewing Gwen Nickens about integration in Shenandoah County. I am going to let her giver her name and address if you would. GN: My name is Gwendolyn, everybody has called me Gwen, Tolliver was my maiden name and of course that was the name I had in school with integration. Now I am married to Nickens, so now I am Gwendolyn Tolliver Nickens. I live in Winchester VA and my husband and I have been there now for about 34-35 years. Woodstock was my home. That is where I was born and raised. My parents were Theodore Tolliver better known as Jim Tolliver, and my mother was Mary Jane better known as Janie Tolliver. I went to school there and I was the first one to integrate schools and attend Central High School. That was several years ago, in fact, it was 1962 and I graduated in 1966. So that is kind of a brief history of my background. ZH: So I guess maybe we could just start out in your own words about how did it come to be that you were the first to integrate Central High School and how that all began. GN: My elementary background involves a one room school with one teacher who taught seven grades. She was the backbone of what I am for the simple fact. Her name was Genevieve R. McClain. She was a West Virginia native. That was where she lived. She lived in Woodstock here in a private home of one of the local people. She was our teacher. She was quite a unique, special lady. Very professional. She handled seven grades in one room. People when they think about that now it is unbelievable. The rapport, the discipline, and the control that she had was just unbelievable. We sat in rows of course. It was not a very large attendance even though it involved Woodstock, Mount Jackson, and part of New Market. So the children from Mount Jackson and New Market were bused down the road and those of us who lived here had of course had the opportunity to be right here. But we all went to school there. We were in rows where the younger children, the first graders, were in the front and then as you progressed in your schooling year you were sent further to the back of the school. It was heated by a wood-burning pot-bellied stove. We had of course our desks and one very long table in the very back where we would meet for our classes. Around the back of the school was our library. It was not very large but there books there that we could check out or we could read. But again this lady had such control over us. The classes also progressed in that order. The first ones, the little ones were the first to go to their classes. Then the older ones proceeded. We had not only reading, writing, and arithmetic, but she also covered geography and science. We were, like I said, we were allowed to use the library for our history and of course she would have us come up and do a lot of individualizing with us, different days for different age groups. When our class time came, we met at this long table in the back of our school and we sat down and went through our lessons. When we had tests we would do it from our desks. When I think back on it, it just seemed so �routine and normal. You learned from the moment you went to her, what she expected of you and not only did she teach us the basics in our studies she also interjected socialization, being able to get up and do recitations, sing music. In the morning we would the Pledge of Allegiance, some type of Bible verse and we would be able to relate our day before. All of this was done like I said so uniquely. But it was handled and by the end of the day everything that was planned to be done was done. Then kind of as a little extra thing on the side for extra time since she lived and did not have to travel she would have us stay if you were interested in learning the basics of cooking. She was involved. I was a Girl Scout with a local group here in Woodstock, and she got involved with that with us girls. She stressed to the young men about being a man and all of the things that go along with that, how to respect ladies. I mean this woman was just unbelievable. It is due to her and the support of my parents and other people of the community along with the local Black pastor who allowed us to use the church when we had special events. We had spelling bees. We learned how to make spaghetti, basic food dishes. We learned how to make homemade ice cream. We even had an old crank ice cream freezer. She acquainted us with that. So this lady laid the groundwork for who I am today along with the assistance of all the other people. We got along well. If there any disputes she handled them and she knew she had the full support of most of the parents and definitely mine. So whatever she said you tried to do. In fact my father quoted to my brother who was older than I, “If Mrs. McClain tells you to go out and climb that tree then you go out and try, give it your best effort." It wasn't any question. But after I finished that there were only three of us in my graduating class. That is how small most of the classes were. All girls. When we finished school right away, what the normal process was, because my brother who graduated several years before I did, was you were bused from Woodstock to Winchester where the closest Black high school was. That was Douglas High School in Winchester, Virginia. My brother went there, in fact when he got old enough he got his driver's license and he drove the school bus that transported the Black children from Woodstock. He would stop in Strasburg and in Stephens City and get those and took them on to Winchester. That is where he went to high school. Well when it came time for me to go to high school my mother had a relative who lived in Washington D.C. who had had several major back operations and she just needed someone to be in her apartment with her to kind of assist her. She had different nurses and other people but she had got to the point where she felt all she really needed was an extra set of hands. So she approached my mom and said "Now Gwen is finishing elementary school, would you think she would come down and stay with me for a year or so?", and mom said "Well I will ask her", so Mom approached me and I agreed to do that. It was like ok where will she go to school. Well of course I graduated from the 7th grade so that meant I would be going in to the 8th grade. So her looking into the situation and where she lived in Washington, the nearest junior school in the city that I would go to was Francis Junior High School in Georgetown which was right on the edge of D.C. and to Georgetown. So that was where I would go and we went and got it set up. When I moved in with her that summer, when I started school I went to Francis Junior High in Georgetown. I went there for the full year that I lived with her. It was quite an experience for me to come from a little country one-room school and go into a junior high city school. It was overwhelming but I adjusted. I made friends. Of course there were those who made fun of me because of not only the way I talked but the way I walked, the way I dressed, I kind of stood out but after awhile they accepted me and everything worked out. So I went to Francis Junior High for my 8th grade year. Near the middle of that year my mother started really missing me and they would come down and visit and of course vacation days at school I was able to come home. So she set me down and said "I really miss you, I think �you should come home". I said, " I have enjoyed being in Washington but I would like to come home". She said,"Well I have got a plan and I have got to ask you how you feel about it". Now my mother was the one that was kind of leading this. My father was in the background, he did not say a whole lot. But at least he gave his support. She said," Rather than go to Douglas I would like to see you stay right here in Woodstock and go to Central. We have a perfectly good high school right here there is not reason for that. There is only one thing, no one else goes there, you would be the first one. Do you have a problem or an issue with that?" I said, "No, none". She said, "Are you sure?" I said, “I am positive if it means that I get to come home." So she very bravely and boldly went and talked to the school superintendent to inform him first that she and my father would be enrolling me to start Central the next school year. It kind of took him back and he said,"You are going to do what?" and she said, "Yes, Jim (my father) and I have lived in this community for years and in fact my father was born here in Woodstock and in fact he worked for several of the well-known families as a young man. He ended up being an auto mechanic and worked for the local Chevrolet dealer. I have been married to him and we have raised our children. I have worked for a lot of people in the community. They all know Jim & I and this our daughter, the last one. and we want her to be at home to go to school." He said, " Do what you think is best but this is kind of going to be difficult." She said," Gwen is ready and we are going to take it for what it is worth". She enrolled me that summer and when the time came for me to start school of course there were some people that were very skeptical even in my own race. They told my parents they were making a mistake. They did not feel it was the time. Again they all approached me and asked me if I was scared. I said no. I got enough in me that I was going to make the best of it and it is going to work out. When the day came for me to start my mother was a nervous wreck. Of course all the mother fears," Have I made a mistake?" And of course we had a few telephone calls, "Don't send that 'you know what' out here, if you do it is going to be a problem, we are going to hurt her". And of course my mother got more and more nervous. Finally the day I was to go they were going to send a bus to pick me up and then they decided no we are not going to take a chance we are going to send a private car and let the car take her. I was all ready and then my mother said at the last minute, " I don't think she should go and my father who was at work at the garage, he had come home and he looked at her and he said," No, we have come this far. Gwen wants to do it. It is going to be all right." So she reluctantly let me get in that car and when we drove up at Central to go in. Of course the newpaper was there, and a lot of parents and their children, the staff most of them came out. The principal came out and escorted me in to school. They introduced me to all the necessary people. They gave me my schedule. They assigned one of the local students who would be in my class to be kind of my guide to be with me that day like my buddy. I learned my way around school and I knew what classes I had to attend. They put me in with, when I say the children who were like the doctors, the lawyers, the department store owners. They put me in with those children rather than the children who were from the country. What they had done was they had talked with those students and they all said, "Oh yes, my dad knows her dad. They come out to our house or her mom comes in our store. They knew my family. They were glad, oh yeah, they were glad to have Gwen. Excited about it. So they put me in with them and so there was not any issue there at all. Different people ask me what happened in school and it was like no one approached me any more but there were a lot of little comments made in the hallway or on the stairwell or once in a while some of them in the cafeteria. But these children that I was in with, there was always one or two of them with me. They would, especially the boys, they would say, “You touch her you are going to answer to me, she deserves to be here as well as you & I, let her alone". Within a �couple of week’s time it was like every day practice. There were a few looks, but that went on for a while, but never any incident, no confrontation, nothing like that. And within time it was like I was one of the group. So that year went very well and I got involved in sports and other activities. I have always liked to sing, so got in Glee singing group. And all of those things were only plusses. I guess you could as a matter of fact I proved myself that I could do what they do. I was willing to learn. All of my teachers were very supportive, and complimentary, how proud they were to have me. When we got to the part in government or in my senior year or in the early years of history when we talked about slavery they would kind of "how is she going to take it?", but hey that is all part of it, I was proud of the fact that I was different from you but we are all in this together. My teacher said that is so great and maybe there are some things that you can tell us that are not in this book. Like what we are doing here. I was blessed to have good grandparents. My mom's parents lived in Mount Jackson. My grandfather was a farmer and I had that experience knowing what that was like. My grandmother would sit down and tell us things so I had that knowledge. My father's parents lived here in Woodstock and they were things that they told me that they had experienced in life. So I did have some things that I could share with them from my history and background. It just went real smooth. So by the next year after the other Black people in the community saw how smooth it was going, it kind of encouraged them and more started coming. Then finally they did away with the need to even go to Winchester and it was just protocol. So it kind of fell right in to place and it has been all right ever since as far as I know. ZH: Now I am curious a little bit about, you said you mother was the real driving force behind you. Was that you think a personal decision on her part or what do think drove her to that? GN: I think it was more that 'Mother Thing'. I think she wanted me home and having experienced the commute and having to deal with my brother who went to Douglas. She had nothing against Douglas and my mother was the kind of mother like more should be who checked in with the school periodically. She was not the stay at home, hands-off mother; she was very much involved the whole time my brother was there. The best way for her to get there, she made her plans; she would ride the bus there. And of course when my brother drove, she got to see how he did then and how proud she was that he was able to handle that as well as be in school. But she had a personal interest on his progress. My brother was very athletic and he loved football. She supported him at that but she also wanted those academics to come in play. And the best way to find out was she would go to classes with him and then talk with the teachers. When my time came, I think it was the actual having me home, when she had an actual hands-on, more being able to be there. Because when I came to Central, she came there periodically. A good parent does that. She didn't do it out of fear or to make my brother or I embarrassed even though she did embarrass my brother, you can imagine, a young man who is a junior or senior in high school and there is momma but they understood and the teacher really because they knew that parental guidance & support was there. She wanted to know and if he wasn't doing and the same thing with me and then you don't play football for a year because the academic part of it. Back then both my parents not completing school, my father did not go very far at all. He dropped out like most young boys do. But my father had a given intellect that a lot of people, he read a lot. He put himself through a mail communication course. But he loved that kind of stuff. He was always was good with his hands, being a mechanic. He had very high abilities that he unfortunately never got to use but it was there. My mother went I think she told �me to 9th grade. She too had to come home, she was in the city living with relatives, because she lived in Mount Jackson in the country but her mother got ill and she was one of the ones who was able to come and take care of Mom so she had to drop out of school. Her education kind of went to a limit and they both wanted my brother and me to have more. ZH: So you think it was more of a practical reason for you to go to school than it was for some other reason. GN: Practical as well as I was going to get what I needed. Douglas was perfectly all right. It was different. I used to go. It was quite interesting for me to go to my brother's class. There was a lot given but there was a lot that was missed. My brother got the basics but there wasn't anything really for him to excel in. The teachers were qualified but my mother knew there was more. It had been done and it was the normal practice for everybody to go there. She wanted to break that mold and provide for me. She looked and saw in me, thanks to Mrs. McClain again, her and other people in my community that it was there that I could do more and the possibility of even college. It was more practical, supportive, wanting me home type of thing. ZH: And you definitely think Central gave you more than you would have gotten if you had gone to Douglas. GN: Absolutely. ZH: Now I guess backing up a little bit I had a couple questions. First you said you were in Girl Scouts. I had not thought about this until you said this. Were the Girl Scout troops segregated? GH: Yes, by the time I got there. The leader of the Girl Scouts when I was in it was the wife of the Administrator of the High School. She was the one who had the time. She picked it up. She had been one for years when he moved here to take that job. She encouraged young girls which most of those people that were involved in those scout organizations did. She even reached out to my school in my community. She made personal visits and extended the invitation for us little girls to get involved. It was due to her that over half of my school the girls joined. It was another from someone caring coming from an area where it was not as common to have segregation where there was more integration. She knew the capability was there and she extended the invitation. I just loved it. I fell right into it. The handwork, the volunteer work, being able to earn the badges and to do all that. She was very supportive. She reached out. It wasn't that we had to hunt her out. She actually came out to us through the school superintendent and my teacher. She approached her and talked to her one on one first, "Mrs. McClain, I like to come to your school if you allow me and talk to your girls about the Girl Scouts". And of course my teacher was very -"Yes indeed, let's give these young ladies everything we possibly can". So that is kind of how that went. ZH: Now do you think there were other people in the white community like her that were supportive of integration? �GN: Oh yes! Like I said most of the people that were doctors, lawyers, store owners, organization leaders, ministers, most of them knew my father and knew where he came from. Knew what he was. They were very supportive. It was like FINALLY when it came out. You are doing this. It should have been done a long time ago Jim, I mean you have three children. Two of them, me and my brother. My sister died way before she was able to. She died at eleven years old. She had been sick most of her life. It was my brother, my sister Shirley, and I was the baby. So my brother and I were the two when she passed. I was only five years old when she passed. They encouraged my father and mother and they were really glad when this happened. They were very supportive. Yes, do this. That is where they belong. You are part of this community. You have lived here all your life. I can' say that I know of anyone that didn't. They never told me of the ones that didn't. Because most of the people that knew my father and grew to know my mother after years of being in the area were very supportive. ZH: So you think that personal connection had a part to play. GN: Oh yes. How can you support someone when you don't really know them? I mean that gives the foundation of being able to say I know what this person can do; I know what this person is. I have lived with this person, I have seen their work. I have worked with them. Yes, I really do. There was a lot. Just like I said there was not any problem at all. A few but they were soon put down or told "Hey leave it alone". Then after a while it was like I said just like every day. ZH: You think definitely the economic standing of people affected the way they viewed integration. GN: Absolutely. Absolutely. If you are exposed, if you are told that it is all part of life, and people even in my own race, some in the people in my own community were not real happy or receptive. They would say "What are you doing? You are going to mess up things; you are going to cause problems". But that comes from not truly understanding or being given the fact that, Hey, you deserve it too. If you come up in a status where I need to stay where I am, I can't cross that line than that is the way you are going to be in my opinion. If you are a better, I won't use the word class, but if you come up with a different understanding and in those homes they were told we are all equal. Jim and Janie's kids are just like you kids. They deserve it just as well as you do. Let them prove themselves. You don't judge someone simply because of the color of their skin. That doesn't make them any different. They are just like us. You cut them they bleed just like we do. It was the people that were the better and most of them like I said it was what they were given from their experiences in life. They had traveled or they had even had the experiences of going to schools where there was integration or being around or associated, or even the fact that some of them had Black ladies or men working for them. Because my father worked for a well-known family when he was a young man. The gentleman was a judge and his wife was a well-to-do aristocratic lady. But they brought their children up with my dad and they loved my dad just like he was a brother to the kids or an extended son. They treated him the same even though he worked for them. The kids growing up loved Dad. "Oh Jim, I mean what will we do without you if you are not here. Come on be a part". That was the kind of relationship they had, so when they grew up and went out they were better prepared when other Blacks approached them. It was like "Oh yeah our Jim you know. We don't even see him that way. So �that I think the advantage of that comes from. They never put you down, they never belittled you. They never said they are only good for this or they are only good for that. It was like "yes they are equal". ZH: You are in the African-American community in Woodstock. The leadership, I kind of got the impression from the research, that there was never any, I guess apart from some isolated incidents where they were pushing for integration. GN: No ZH: That some of that even came from the outside. I found evidence of the NAACP pushing for some integration in Shenandoah County from Winchester from the chapter there. Do you think you find that to be true? GN: Yes. It was status quo for the older Black people in the community. You stay over here. That is what you do. You don't cross that line. But my mother being an independent, strong Black woman, she said “You’re not talking to me. This is my child. This is my decision. You are not my leader. I have been given my own mind. I respect you for who you are but if that is where you want to stay, then God Bless you. But me and my mine will not. It did not go over real well. First of all, my mother was an outsider in the community anyhow. My father married her from Mount Jackson so it was already touch and go with the relationship with bringing someone from outside. A lot of people have that narrow-minded concept, you stay within. After she got here, like I said, she became independent, she went to work, she kept her house, and she raised us. She didn't associate on the side, she went to church. It was like, golly this woman is different. But that was just her and a lot of them had a hard time, especially the older ones. Now the younger ones they saw how it went and they were able to experience it little by little. It was like 'Oh, this is how it is". You had that where as far as leaders, my mom told several of the older people, “Maybe you think you are a leader or maybe you are theirs, but you are not mine. I don't answer to no one but God". ZH: There is more to integration in Shenandoah County than the school. I have done the research as to when the pools integrated and the theaters integrated. Do you have any experiences related to those things? GN: Those are not things that I really pushed. Kind of went along with the program to a certain degree. I didn't do sit-ins or demonstrations. I didn't do a lot of swimming because I am not a swimmer, unfortunately I regret that now. But the movie theater it was just common practice when we went in we went to the balcony the upper lever. To be very honest I preferred being on the upper level anyway. So that was not a big deal. I didn't personally put a whole lot into that. That was things that came along later. Magestic once it was done. Even the local pharmacy couldn't go in and get a soda or whatever. Didn't push that a lot. It happened. Once it happened it was fine. But mine basically was just school. ZH: I am sure you experienced a lot of the segregation of society like the restaurants. Could you maybe talk a little bit about that? What things were segregated in Woodstock and a little bit of your experience? �GN: Pretty much the movie theater like you said. And once they did build the swimming pool. Like I said the local Walton & Smoot pharmacy, going in and sitting at the fountain. But you know I don't remember it being a big problem anywhere. I really don't. Again most of the local Black people were well enough known that most would go. Those who wanted to would go and those who stayed away, stayed sway. I personally, like I said, my father now the only one thing I can remember we would go up to Mac's Truck Center, I don't even know if it is still up there on Route 11, we would go in there. The Blacks had to go around to the back and go in a side door that was right there at the kitchen. They had a booth there and that is where the Blacks went. They didn't go in the front door into the dining area. I can remember going there with my parents. But that was just normal practice. My father didn't push the issue of gong in the front door. I grew up not knowing any different. But once it did change, I had gotten older, and I heard people talk about, "guess what we aren't going around to that back door any more we are going right in the front". But other than that, like I said, it wasn’t big issue to me, I was perfectly satisfied where I was. It was just the ability to go to school freely and that opened me up then to me more association with the white children to maybe not do so much in the community but to go in their homes, to go on trips together and do that kind of thing. That was more exciting to me than actually pushing the issue. ZH: The junior high school you talked about you went to Francis Junior High School--was that an integrated school? GN: Oh yes. In Georgetown. ZH: Do you think that made you more prepared to go to an integrated school? GN: Certainly helped. If nothing else it built my self-confidence. Because that was a unique experience for a little country girl, like I said earlier, from a one-room school with seven grades to go to a city school and be exposed to all of the different cultures, different races, different styles of teaching, more fast-paced. I mean the whole thing, it truly helped prepare me. ZH: I am interested in the difference between what would have been the typical white student experience here and the typical African-American student. So coming from the AfricanAmerican school in Woodstock, do you think if you had gone straight in to Central would you have had a different experience than the white students who had gone to a different school? GN: I don't think so. ZH: So you don't think the education that you had gotten in elementary school was that much different than the others? GN: No. It laid the basics. Reading, writing, and arithmetic as the old folks say, they are the three ground players. She interjected that and along with it things that I really liked, history, science, geography that was just injected in. But laying the basics so I was able to go in and pick up a textbook and start from scratch. As long as I knew I had the help with that teacher. And like I said, all of them were very encouraging and helpful. But no I don't think, it maybe would have �been a little bit as far as my self-confidence, but I never denied myself. I was never afraid. When they asked me if I was ok. I said yes, I don't have any problem with that. I don't have anything to be ashamed of. I am willing to learn and that is what school is for. If I get behind, or I feel that I am not meeting expectations, hopefully I will have someone to go to wherever I am. That has always has been my thought. No you are not going to get everything right off the bat, I tell my grandchildren that. The last one is graduating from high school this year. But you can do it. There is no such thing as "I can't". Yes you can. It might take you a little bit longer or you might need a little help. But I have always, my dad, like I said, did not have much schooling but was self-taught in so many things. He was one of those kind who could sit you down and reason with you thru intellect and talking with you and raising his voice and being very disciplinary. In my household my mother was the disciplinarian and believe me you did not want to mess with Miss Janie. But my father was always the one that could reason with you. My father explained to me about death when my sister died. And you know you don't forget those kinds of things. It has been a part of me and I appreciate that. He made me understand. There were a lot of little habits and things that I had that were not right. He would sit me down and explain to me why what I was doing was not good for me or anyone else or dangerous or what I could do. And those are things that are like WOW! He instilled in me there is nothing that you can't do. But if by chance there is something then don't worry about it because maybe it isn't your thing. You try something else. Try something else. ZH: Find your thing. GN: Yes. And along with that as I said earlier, there was the faith issue. You go to Sunday School and Church and you learn about Jesus. You don't leave him out. So I credit my community, my parents, and Mrs. McClain. Our morning ritual, Bible study of some sort, a Bible verse, the Pledge of Allegiance and then what you got out of the day before. ZH: So you think your faith and maybe the church really helped you when it came to integrating the school. GN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Very much so. ZH: I am curious; you talked a little bit about the superintendent of the school. I know you were not the one talking to them but overall do you think they were opposed to integration and if they were do you think they would have eventually integrated the schools themselves if they had not been pushed. GN: It really was such a shock. I mean this is not something that well I am getting a little bit that maybe they are thinking about it or someone talked to them about it and come and prepared me. I mean Mom just approached him "cold turkey", right out of the blue," I am doing it". "What?" I think it was more the shock of it. The timing of it I don't think had a whole lot to do with it. Because eventually you know it was going to happen. Eventually all things come to an end. But I just didn't think, Well I got thru with Skip with Jim & Janie, now all they have is Gwen. I don't think they expected necessarily from my mom and dad. I mean they gave no inclination of it even though they were independent people, going about their business. They did their jobs and all that. But it was just the "Now, under my?". But once it happened they were very supportive. �Another thing about him was when Mom did go, she called his home to talk to him. She said "I want to do this one on one. I am not going to do this publicly yet". He was in bed sick. His wife said the day she was to go,"Do you think we better call and tell her not to come?" He said, “No let her come. I feel better". I don't think it was anything big but he was sick. He had been at home sick for a few days. So when Mom went she said maybe I should come back but his wife said no he said he would talk with you. So I don't know what he expected. But he was receptive to her when she went in. She told him I hope you feel better but I just wanted to come and tell you first. He said, "What is that Mrs. Tolliver?". She told him what. He said, "You are going to do what?” Because looking back on it now, little stories that Mom told me, after I finished elementary school, they kept the process of the segregated schools for awhile. It lasted a little longer at the school where I was because they had to expand to a larger place. The Black children ended up going to one of the old white schools while they built the new one. When the teacher was not feeling well they had to find a substitute. Several times they approached my mom. "Mrs. Tolliver, would you be willing to go out and just sit with the children for a day or so until the teacher gets back? And just be there and maybe go over a few things with them or listen to them read? And she said she would do that. Well Mom got involved in the school as someone that they knew they could count on to call to go and just sit there. She ended getting more involved with the children because she came away knowing some of them were not where they should be in their education and she commented. But that is just the way she was. And I think maybe he thought that maybe she was coming to talk to him about a student at school. And then she told him," No, I am coming to tell you we are going to enroll Gwen at Central for the coming year." ZH: The research I have found is right until you went to Central; they were planning on building new Black schools in Woodstock and Strasburg. GN: Yes. Yes. Leave status quo, the way status quo. No ones doing anything about. We will leave sleeping dogs lie. It is working out so far. Nobody in the white community was really pushing for it. In fact a lot of times you think, well they are happy so leave them them alone if you don't really sit down and talk to someone. Most of the Black community was satisfied and happy. ZH: Well really that is pretty much all I had. Is there anything else you would like to add? GN: I have talked to several that followed after me and none of them had any issues. Everybody got along. Right to today. Friendships were made. I still did up until a few years ago we had our annual class reunions. It was always so good to see all of them. A lot of them grew up in the community close, their parents and my parents. Of course, a lot of them are gone now. I got to know them one on one. We shared with one another. I started a little bit earlier in my life than a lot of them. A lot of them had an opportunity to go right from high school to college. I got married. So I had a completely different lifestyle. I had a daughter. Then after I had my daughter I went back to school. So I started a lot earlier than a lot of them. So at the class reunions I would talk about my daughter and getting older and her school experiences and they were just starting to have their children. I have been blessed and in the last couple I would talk about my first grandchild. It was like, "What? Mine is just barely getting in to high school and you already have a grandchild?". Yes, but I started earlier. So it has always been good. No issues or problems. �ZH: And that is pretty much what I have gotten from everybody else, they said there were no issues or problems. GN: Yes. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zachary Hottel Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gwendolyn Tolliver Nickens Location The location of the interview Consulate Healthcare, Woodstock Virginia Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Oral History Transcript 16-0002 Interviewee: Gwendolyn Tolliver Nickens (GN) Interviewer: Zachary Hottel (ZH) Subject: Integration, Segregation, Shenandoah County Public Schools (VA) 2-15-2016 ZH: This is Zach Hottel with the Shenandoah County Library Archives interviewing Gwen Nickens about integration in Shenandoah County. I am going to let her giver her name and address if you would. GN: My name is Gwendolyn, everybody has called me Gwen, Tolliver was my maiden name and of course that was the name I had in school with integration. Now I am married to Nickens, so now I am Gwendolyn Tolliver Nickens. I live in Winchester VA and my husband and I have been there now for about 34-35 years. Woodstock was my home. That is where I was born and raised. My parents were Theodore Tolliver better known as Jim Tolliver, and my mother was Mary Jane better known as Janie Tolliver. I went to school there and I was the first one to integrate schools and attend Central High School. That was several years ago, in fact, it was 1962 and I graduated in 1966. So that is kind of a brief history of my background. ZH: So I guess maybe we could just start out in your own words about how did it come to be that you were the first to integrate Central High School and how that all began. GN: My elementary background involves a one room school with one teacher who taught seven grades. She was the backbone of what I am for the simple fact. Her name was Genevieve R. McClain. She was a West Virginia native. That was where she lived. She lived in Woodstock here in a private home of one of the local people. She was our teacher. She was quite a unique, special lady. Very professional. She handled seven grades in one room. People when they think about that now it is unbelievable. The rapport, the discipline, and the control that she had was just unbelievable. We sat in rows of course. It was not a very large attendance even though it involved Woodstock, Mount Jackson, and part of New Market. So the children from Mount Jackson and New Market were bused down the road and those of us who lived here had of course had the opportunity to be right here. But we all went to school there. We were in rows where the younger children, the first graders, were in the front and then as you progressed in your schooling year you were sent further to the back of the school. It was heated by a wood-burning pot-bellied stove. We had of course our desks and one very long table in the very back where we would meet for our classes. Around the back of the school was our library. It was not very large but there books there that we could check out or we could read. But again this lady had such control over us. The classes also progressed in that order. The first ones, the little ones were the first to go to their classes. Then the older ones proceeded. We had not only reading, writing, and arithmetic, but she also covered geography and science. We were, like I said, we were allowed to use the library for our history and of course she would have us come up and do a lot of individualizing with us, different days for different age groups. When our class time came, we met at this long table in the back of our school and we sat down and went through our lessons. When we had tests we would do it from our desks. When I think back on it, it just seemed so routine and normal. You learned from the moment you went to her, what she expected of you and not only did she teach us the basics in our studies she also interjected socialization, being able to get up and do recitations, sing music. In the morning we would the Pledge of Allegiance, some type of Bible verse and we would be able to relate our day before. All of this was done like I said so uniquely. But it was handled and by the end of the day everything that was planned to be done was done. Then kind of as a little extra thing on the side for extra time since she lived and did not have to travel she would have us stay if you were interested in learning the basics of cooking. She was involved. I was a Girl Scout with a local group here in Woodstock, and she got involved with that with us girls. She stressed to the young men about being a man and all of the things that go along with that, how to respect ladies. I mean this woman was just unbelievable. It is due to her and the support of my parents and other people of the community along with the local Black pastor who allowed us to use the church when we had special events. We had spelling bees. We learned how to make spaghetti, basic food dishes. We learned how to make homemade ice cream. We even had an old crank ice cream freezer. She acquainted us with that. So this lady laid the groundwork for who I am today along with the assistance of all the other people. We got along well. If there any disputes she handled them and she knew she had the full support of most of the parents and definitely mine. So whatever she said you tried to do. In fact my father quoted to my brother who was older than I, “If Mrs. McClain tells you to go out and climb that tree then you go out and try, give it your best effort." It wasn't any question. But after I finished that there were only three of us in my graduating class. That is how small most of the classes were. All girls. When we finished school right away, what the normal process was, because my brother who graduated several years before I did, was you were bused from Woodstock to Winchester where the closest Black high school was. That was Douglas High School in Winchester, Virginia. My brother went there, in fact when he got old enough he got his driver's license and he drove the school bus that transported the Black children from Woodstock. He would stop in Strasburg and in Stephens City and get those and took them on to Winchester. That is where he went to high school. Well when it came time for me to go to high school my mother had a relative who lived in Washington D.C. who had had several major back operations and she just needed someone to be in her apartment with her to kind of assist her. She had different nurses and other people but she had got to the point where she felt all she really needed was an extra set of hands. So she approached my mom and said "Now Gwen is finishing elementary school, would you think she would come down and stay with me for a year or so?", and mom said "Well I will ask her", so Mom approached me and I agreed to do that. It was like ok where will she go to school. Well of course I graduated from the 7th grade so that meant I would be going in to the 8th grade. So her looking into the situation and where she lived in Washington, the nearest junior school in the city that I would go to was Francis Junior High School in Georgetown which was right on the edge of D.C. and to Georgetown. So that was where I would go and we went and got it set up. When I moved in with her that summer, when I started school I went to Francis Junior High in Georgetown. I went there for the full year that I lived with her. It was quite an experience for me to come from a little country one-room school and go into a junior high city school. It was overwhelming but I adjusted. I made friends. Of course there were those who made fun of me because of not only the way I talked but the way I walked, the way I dressed, I kind of stood out but after awhile they accepted me and everything worked out. So I went to Francis Junior High for my 8th grade year. Near the middle of that year my mother started really missing me and they would come down and visit and of course vacation days at school I was able to come home. So she set me down and said "I really miss you, I think you should come home". I said, " I have enjoyed being in Washington but I would like to come home". She said,"Well I have got a plan and I have got to ask you how you feel about it". Now my mother was the one that was kind of leading this. My father was in the background, he did not say a whole lot. But at least he gave his support. She said," Rather than go to Douglas I would like to see you stay right here in Woodstock and go to Central. We have a perfectly good high school right here there is not reason for that. There is only one thing, no one else goes there, you would be the first one. Do you have a problem or an issue with that?" I said, "No, none". She said, "Are you sure?" I said, “I am positive if it means that I get to come home." So she very bravely and boldly went and talked to the school superintendent to inform him first that she and my father would be enrolling me to start Central the next school year. It kind of took him back and he said,"You are going to do what?" and she said, "Yes, Jim (my father) and I have lived in this community for years and in fact my father was born here in Woodstock and in fact he worked for several of the well-known families as a young man. He ended up being an auto mechanic and worked for the local Chevrolet dealer. I have been married to him and we have raised our children. I have worked for a lot of people in the community. They all know Jim & I and this our daughter, the last one. and we want her to be at home to go to school." He said, " Do what you think is best but this is kind of going to be difficult." She said," Gwen is ready and we are going to take it for what it is worth". She enrolled me that summer and when the time came for me to start school of course there were some people that were very skeptical even in my own race. They told my parents they were making a mistake. They did not feel it was the time. Again they all approached me and asked me if I was scared. I said no. I got enough in me that I was going to make the best of it and it is going to work out. When the day came for me to start my mother was a nervous wreck. Of course all the mother fears," Have I made a mistake?" And of course we had a few telephone calls, "Don't send that 'you know what' out here, if you do it is going to be a problem, we are going to hurt her". And of course my mother got more and more nervous. Finally the day I was to go they were going to send a bus to pick me up and then they decided no we are not going to take a chance we are going to send a private car and let the car take her. I was all ready and then my mother said at the last minute, " I don't think she should go and my father who was at work at the garage, he had come home and he looked at her and he said," No, we have come this far. Gwen wants to do it. It is going to be all right." So she reluctantly let me get in that car and when we drove up at Central to go in. Of course the newpaper was there, and a lot of parents and their children, the staff most of them came out. The principal came out and escorted me in to school. They introduced me to all the necessary people. They gave me my schedule. They assigned one of the local students who would be in my class to be kind of my guide to be with me that day like my buddy. I learned my way around school and I knew what classes I had to attend. They put me in with, when I say the children who were like the doctors, the lawyers, the department store owners. They put me in with those children rather than the children who were from the country. What they had done was they had talked with those students and they all said, "Oh yes, my dad knows her dad. They come out to our house or her mom comes in our store. They knew my family. They were glad, oh yeah, they were glad to have Gwen. Excited about it. So they put me in with them and so there was not any issue there at all. Different people ask me what happened in school and it was like no one approached me any more but there were a lot of little comments made in the hallway or on the stairwell or once in a while some of them in the cafeteria. But these children that I was in with, there was always one or two of them with me. They would, especially the boys, they would say, “You touch her you are going to answer to me, she deserves to be here as well as you & I, let her alone". Within a couple of week’s time it was like every day practice. There were a few looks, but that went on for a while, but never any incident, no confrontation, nothing like that. And within time it was like I was one of the group. So that year went very well and I got involved in sports and other activities. I have always liked to sing, so got in Glee singing group. And all of those things were only plusses. I guess you could as a matter of fact I proved myself that I could do what they do. I was willing to learn. All of my teachers were very supportive, and complimentary, how proud they were to have me. When we got to the part in government or in my senior year or in the early years of history when we talked about slavery they would kind of "how is she going to take it?", but hey that is all part of it, I was proud of the fact that I was different from you but we are all in this together. My teacher said that is so great and maybe there are some things that you can tell us that are not in this book. Like what we are doing here. I was blessed to have good grandparents. My mom's parents lived in Mount Jackson. My grandfather was a farmer and I had that experience knowing what that was like. My grandmother would sit down and tell us things so I had that knowledge. My father's parents lived here in Woodstock and they were things that they told me that they had experienced in life. So I did have some things that I could share with them from my history and background. It just went real smooth. So by the next year after the other Black people in the community saw how smooth it was going, it kind of encouraged them and more started coming. Then finally they did away with the need to even go to Winchester and it was just protocol. So it kind of fell right in to place and it has been all right ever since as far as I know. ZH: Now I am curious a little bit about, you said you mother was the real driving force behind you. Was that you think a personal decision on her part or what do think drove her to that? GN: I think it was more that 'Mother Thing'. I think she wanted me home and having experienced the commute and having to deal with my brother who went to Douglas. She had nothing against Douglas and my mother was the kind of mother like more should be who checked in with the school periodically. She was not the stay at home, hands-off mother; she was very much involved the whole time my brother was there. The best way for her to get there, she made her plans; she would ride the bus there. And of course when my brother drove, she got to see how he did then and how proud she was that he was able to handle that as well as be in school. But she had a personal interest on his progress. My brother was very athletic and he loved football. She supported him at that but she also wanted those academics to come in play. And the best way to find out was she would go to classes with him and then talk with the teachers. When my time came, I think it was the actual having me home, when she had an actual hands-on, more being able to be there. Because when I came to Central, she came there periodically. A good parent does that. She didn't do it out of fear or to make my brother or I embarrassed even though she did embarrass my brother, you can imagine, a young man who is a junior or senior in high school and there is momma but they understood and the teacher really because they knew that parental guidance & support was there. She wanted to know and if he wasn't doing and the same thing with me and then you don't play football for a year because the academic part of it. Back then both my parents not completing school, my father did not go very far at all. He dropped out like most young boys do. But my father had a given intellect that a lot of people, he read a lot. He put himself through a mail communication course. But he loved that kind of stuff. He was always was good with his hands, being a mechanic. He had very high abilities that he unfortunately never got to use but it was there. My mother went I think she told me to 9th grade. She too had to come home, she was in the city living with relatives, because she lived in Mount Jackson in the country but her mother got ill and she was one of the ones who was able to come and take care of Mom so she had to drop out of school. Her education kind of went to a limit and they both wanted my brother and me to have more. ZH: So you think it was more of a practical reason for you to go to school than it was for some other reason. GN: Practical as well as I was going to get what I needed. Douglas was perfectly all right. It was different. I used to go. It was quite interesting for me to go to my brother's class. There was a lot given but there was a lot that was missed. My brother got the basics but there wasn't anything really for him to excel in. The teachers were qualified but my mother knew there was more. It had been done and it was the normal practice for everybody to go there. She wanted to break that mold and provide for me. She looked and saw in me, thanks to Mrs. McClain again, her and other people in my community that it was there that I could do more and the possibility of even college. It was more practical, supportive, wanting me home type of thing. ZH: And you definitely think Central gave you more than you would have gotten if you had gone to Douglas. GN: Absolutely. ZH: Now I guess backing up a little bit I had a couple questions. First you said you were in Girl Scouts. I had not thought about this until you said this. Were the Girl Scout troops segregated? GH: Yes, by the time I got there. The leader of the Girl Scouts when I was in it was the wife of the Administrator of the High School. She was the one who had the time. She picked it up. She had been one for years when he moved here to take that job. She encouraged young girls which most of those people that were involved in those scout organizations did. She even reached out to my school in my community. She made personal visits and extended the invitation for us little girls to get involved. It was due to her that over half of my school the girls joined. It was another from someone caring coming from an area where it was not as common to have segregation where there was more integration. She knew the capability was there and she extended the invitation. I just loved it. I fell right into it. The handwork, the volunteer work, being able to earn the badges and to do all that. She was very supportive. She reached out. It wasn't that we had to hunt her out. She actually came out to us through the school superintendent and my teacher. She approached her and talked to her one on one first, "Mrs. McClain, I like to come to your school if you allow me and talk to your girls about the Girl Scouts". And of course my teacher was very --"Yes indeed, let's give these young ladies everything we possibly can". So that is kind of how that went. ZH: Now do you think there were other people in the white community like her that were supportive of integration? GN: Oh yes! Like I said most of the people that were doctors, lawyers, store owners, organization leaders, ministers, most of them knew my father and knew where he came from. Knew what he was. They were very supportive. It was like FINALLY when it came out. You are doing this. It should have been done a long time ago Jim, I mean you have three children. Two of them, me and my brother. My sister died way before she was able to. She died at eleven years old. She had been sick most of her life. It was my brother, my sister Shirley, and I was the baby. So my brother and I were the two when she passed. I was only five years old when she passed. They encouraged my father and mother and they were really glad when this happened. They were very supportive. Yes, do this. That is where they belong. You are part of this community. You have lived here all your life. I can' say that I know of anyone that didn't. They never told me of the ones that didn't. Because most of the people that knew my father and grew to know my mother after years of being in the area were very supportive. ZH: So you think that personal connection had a part to play. GN: Oh yes. How can you support someone when you don't really know them? I mean that gives the foundation of being able to say I know what this person can do; I know what this person is. I have lived with this person, I have seen their work. I have worked with them. Yes, I really do. There was a lot. Just like I said there was not any problem at all. A few but they were soon put down or told "Hey leave it alone". Then after a while it was like I said just like every day. ZH: You think definitely the economic standing of people affected the way they viewed integration. GN: Absolutely. Absolutely. If you are exposed, if you are told that it is all part of life, and people even in my own race, some in the people in my own community were not real happy or receptive. They would say "What are you doing? You are going to mess up things; you are going to cause problems". But that comes from not truly understanding or being given the fact that, Hey, you deserve it too. If you come up in a status where I need to stay where I am, I can't cross that line than that is the way you are going to be in my opinion. If you are a better, I won't use the word class, but if you come up with a different understanding and in those homes they were told we are all equal. Jim and Janie's kids are just like you kids. They deserve it just as well as you do. Let them prove themselves. You don't judge someone simply because of the color of their skin. That doesn't make them any different. They are just like us. You cut them they bleed just like we do. It was the people that were the better and most of them like I said it was what they were given from their experiences in life. They had traveled or they had even had the experiences of going to schools where there was integration or being around or associated, or even the fact that some of them had Black ladies or men working for them. Because my father worked for a well-known family when he was a young man. The gentleman was a judge and his wife was a well-to-do aristocratic lady. But they brought their children up with my dad and they loved my dad just like he was a brother to the kids or an extended son. They treated him the same even though he worked for them. The kids growing up loved Dad. "Oh Jim, I mean what will we do without you if you are not here. Come on be a part". That was the kind of relationship they had, so when they grew up and went out they were better prepared when other Blacks approached them. It was like "Oh yeah our Jim you know. We don't even see him that way. So that I think the advantage of that comes from. They never put you down, they never belittled you. They never said they are only good for this or they are only good for that. It was like "yes they are equal". ZH: You are in the African-American community in Woodstock. The leadership, I kind of got the impression from the research, that there was never any, I guess apart from some isolated incidents where they were pushing for integration. GN: No ZH: That some of that even came from the outside. I found evidence of the NAACP pushing for some integration in Shenandoah County from Winchester from the chapter there. Do you think you find that to be true? GN: Yes. It was status quo for the older Black people in the community. You stay over here. That is what you do. You don't cross that line. But my mother being an independent, strong Black woman, she said “You’re not talking to me. This is my child. This is my decision. You are not my leader. I have been given my own mind. I respect you for who you are but if that is where you want to stay, then God Bless you. But me and my mine will not. It did not go over real well. First of all, my mother was an outsider in the community anyhow. My father married her from Mount Jackson so it was already touch and go with the relationship with bringing someone from outside. A lot of people have that narrow-minded concept, you stay within. After she got here, like I said, she became independent, she went to work, she kept her house, and she raised us. She didn't associate on the side, she went to church. It was like, golly this woman is different. But that was just her and a lot of them had a hard time, especially the older ones. Now the younger ones they saw how it went and they were able to experience it little by little. It was like 'Oh, this is how it is". You had that where as far as leaders, my mom told several of the older people, “Maybe you think you are a leader or maybe you are theirs, but you are not mine. I don't answer to no one but God". ZH: There is more to integration in Shenandoah County than the school. I have done the research as to when the pools integrated and the theaters integrated. Do you have any experiences related to those things? GN: Those are not things that I really pushed. Kind of went along with the program to a certain degree. I didn't do sit-ins or demonstrations. I didn't do a lot of swimming because I am not a swimmer, unfortunately I regret that now. But the movie theater it was just common practice when we went in we went to the balcony the upper lever. To be very honest I preferred being on the upper level anyway. So that was not a big deal. I didn't personally put a whole lot into that. That was things that came along later. Magestic once it was done. Even the local pharmacy couldn't go in and get a soda or whatever. Didn't push that a lot. It happened. Once it happened it was fine. But mine basically was just school. ZH: I am sure you experienced a lot of the segregation of society like the restaurants. Could you maybe talk a little bit about that? What things were segregated in Woodstock and a little bit of your experience? GN: Pretty much the movie theater like you said. And once they did build the swimming pool. Like I said the local Walton & Smoot pharmacy, going in and sitting at the fountain. But you know I don't remember it being a big problem anywhere. I really don't. Again most of the local Black people were well enough known that most would go. Those who wanted to would go and those who stayed away, stayed sway. I personally, like I said, my father now the only one thing I can remember we would go up to Mac's Truck Center, I don't even know if it is still up there on Route 11, we would go in there. The Blacks had to go around to the back and go in a side door that was right there at the kitchen. They had a booth there and that is where the Blacks went. They didn't go in the front door into the dining area. I can remember going there with my parents. But that was just normal practice. My father didn't push the issue of gong in the front door. I grew up not knowing any different. But once it did change, I had gotten older, and I heard people talk about, "guess what we aren't going around to that back door any more we are going right in the front". But other than that, like I said, it wasn’t big issue to me, I was perfectly satisfied where I was. It was just the ability to go to school freely and that opened me up then to me more association with the white children to maybe not do so much in the community but to go in their homes, to go on trips together and do that kind of thing. That was more exciting to me than actually pushing the issue. ZH: The junior high school you talked about you went to Francis Junior High School--was that an integrated school? GN: Oh yes. In Georgetown. ZH: Do you think that made you more prepared to go to an integrated school? GN: Certainly helped. If nothing else it built my self-confidence. Because that was a unique experience for a little country girl, like I said earlier, from a one-room school with seven grades to go to a city school and be exposed to all of the different cultures, different races, different styles of teaching, more fast-paced. I mean the whole thing, it truly helped prepare me. ZH: I am interested in the difference between what would have been the typical white student experience here and the typical African-American student. So coming from the African-American school in Woodstock, do you think if you had gone straight in to Central would you have had a different experience than the white students who had gone to a different school? GN: I don't think so. ZH: So you don't think the education that you had gotten in elementary school was that much different than the others? GN: No. It laid the basics. Reading, writing, and arithmetic as the old folks say, they are the three ground players. She interjected that and along with it things that I really liked, history, science, geography that was just injected in. But laying the basics so I was able to go in and pick up a textbook and start from scratch. As long as I knew I had the help with that teacher. And like I said, all of them were very encouraging and helpful. But no I don't think, it maybe would have been a little bit as far as my self-confidence, but I never denied myself. I was never afraid. When they asked me if I was ok. I said yes, I don't have any problem with that. I don't have anything to be ashamed of. I am willing to learn and that is what school is for. If I get behind, or I feel that I am not meeting expectations, hopefully I will have someone to go to wherever I am. That has always has been my thought. No you are not going to get everything right off the bat, I tell my grandchildren that. The last one is graduating from high school this year. But you can do it. There is no such thing as "I can't". Yes you can. It might take you a little bit longer or you might need a little help. But I have always, my dad, like I said, did not have much schooling but was self-taught in so many things. He was one of those kind who could sit you down and reason with you thru intellect and talking with you and raising his voice and being very disciplinary. In my household my mother was the disciplinarian and believe me you did not want to mess with Miss Janie. But my father was always the one that could reason with you. My father explained to me about death when my sister died. And you know you don't forget those kinds of things. It has been a part of me and I appreciate that. He made me understand. There were a lot of little habits and things that I had that were not right. He would sit me down and explain to me why what I was doing was not good for me or anyone else or dangerous or what I could do. And those are things that are like WOW! He instilled in me there is nothing that you can't do. But if by chance there is something then don't worry about it because maybe it isn't your thing. You try something else. Try something else. ZH: Find your thing. GN: Yes. And along with that as I said earlier, there was the faith issue. You go to Sunday School and Church and you learn about Jesus. You don't leave him out. So I credit my community, my parents, and Mrs. McClain. Our morning ritual, Bible study of some sort, a Bible verse, the Pledge of Allegiance and then what you got out of the day before. ZH: So you think your faith and maybe the church really helped you when it came to integrating the school. GN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Very much so. ZH: I am curious; you talked a little bit about the superintendent of the school. I know you were not the one talking to them but overall do you think they were opposed to integration and if they were do you think they would have eventually integrated the schools themselves if they had not been pushed. GN: It really was such a shock. I mean this is not something that well I am getting a little bit that maybe they are thinking about it or someone talked to them about it and come and prepared me. I mean Mom just approached him "cold turkey", right out of the blue," I am doing it". "What?" I think it was more the shock of it. The timing of it I don't think had a whole lot to do with it. Because eventually you know it was going to happen. Eventually all things come to an end. But I just didn't think, Well I got thru with Skip with Jim & Janie, now all they have is Gwen. I don't think they expected necessarily from my mom and dad. I mean they gave no inclination of it even though they were independent people, going about their business. They did their jobs and all that. But it was just the "Now, under my?". But once it happened they were very supportive. Another thing about him was when Mom did go, she called his home to talk to him. She said "I want to do this one on one. I am not going to do this publicly yet". He was in bed sick. His wife said the day she was to go,"Do you think we better call and tell her not to come?" He said, “No let her come. I feel better". I don't think it was anything big but he was sick. He had been at home sick for a few days. So when Mom went she said maybe I should come back but his wife said no he said he would talk with you. So I don't know what he expected. But he was receptive to her when she went in. She told him I hope you feel better but I just wanted to come and tell you first. He said, "What is that Mrs. Tolliver?". She told him what. He said, "You are going to do what?” Because looking back on it now, little stories that Mom told me, after I finished elementary school, they kept the process of the segregated schools for awhile. It lasted a little longer at the school where I was because they had to expand to a larger place. The Black children ended up going to one of the old white schools while they built the new one. When the teacher was not feeling well they had to find a substitute. Several times they approached my mom. "Mrs. Tolliver, would you be willing to go out and just sit with the children for a day or so until the teacher gets back? And just be there and maybe go over a few things with them or listen to them read? And she said she would do that. Well Mom got involved in the school as someone that they knew they could count on to call to go and just sit there. She ended getting more involved with the children because she came away knowing some of them were not where they should be in their education and she commented. But that is just the way she was. And I think maybe he thought that maybe she was coming to talk to him about a student at school. And then she told him," No, I am coming to tell you we are going to enroll Gwen at Central for the coming year." ZH: The research I have found is right until you went to Central; they were planning on building new Black schools in Woodstock and Strasburg. GN: Yes. Yes. Leave status quo, the way status quo. No ones doing anything about. We will leave sleeping dogs lie. It is working out so far. Nobody in the white community was really pushing for it. In fact a lot of times you think, well they are happy so leave them them alone if you don't really sit down and talk to someone. Most of the Black community was satisfied and happy. ZH: Well really that is pretty much all I had. Is there anything else you would like to add? GN: I have talked to several that followed after me and none of them had any issues. Everybody got along. Right to today. Friendships were made. I still did up until a few years ago we had our annual class reunions. It was always so good to see all of them. A lot of them grew up in the community close, their parents and my parents. Of course, a lot of them are gone now. I got to know them one on one. We shared with one another. I started a little bit earlier in my life than a lot of them. A lot of them had an opportunity to go right from high school to college. I got married. So I had a completely different lifestyle. I had a daughter. Then after I had my daughter I went back to school. So I started a lot earlier than a lot of them. So at the class reunions I would talk about my daughter and getting older and her school experiences and they were just starting to have their children. I have been blessed and in the last couple I would talk about my first grandchild. It was like, "What? Mine is just barely getting in to high school and you already have a grandchild?". Yes, but I started earlier. So it has always been good. No issues or problems. ZH: And that is pretty much what I have gotten from everybody else, they said there were no issues or problems. GN: Yes. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gwendolyn Tolliver Nickens Oral History Interview Subject The topic of the resource Nickens, Gwendolyn Tolliver Central High School (Woodstock Va) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview featuring Gwendolyn "Gwen" Tolliver Nickens conducted on February 5, 2016 for the Shenandoah County Library's Black History Month Program. In 1963 Gwen became the first African American student to attend the formally segregated Central High School in Woodstock Virginia. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Zachary Hottel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Shenandoah Voices Oral History Collection <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VbM08jy7TGU" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 5, 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 File Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016-0002 African Americans Integration Schools Segregation Shenandoah County Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/c92cebe71ca9d885ebaf6b6c9955c1d2.pdf 19b078740f2ddd28662829dd7504c414 PDF Text Text Oral History Transcript 16-0004 Interviewee: Laura Marquetta Mitchell & Willy Mitchell Interviewer: Zach Hottel Subject: Integration, Segregation, Strasburg (Va); Shenandoah County Public Schools (Va) February 9, 2016 Zach: This is Zach Hottel. It is February 9th. I am here to do an oral history interview on integration and segregation. Marquetta: My name is Marquetta Mitchell. I always like to say Laura Marquetta Mitchell and Zach is in our home here with my husband and me to talk about segregation and integration. We welcome him in our home and we glad for the opportunity. Zach: Thank you. Willy: My name Wilbert "Willy" Mitchell. I was born on August 3, 1948. Went to Sunset Hill Elementary School and shortly after graduation went to Strasburg High School. Marquetta: I actually was born in Greenville, Tennessee. I always say that because my mother happened to be in Greenville at the time and that was her hometown. I call Strasburg my home though. I attended Sunset Hills School until I graduated from the seventh grade. When I graduated from the seventh grade that was when the segregated schools here, that was the last year of the segregated school. So I was in the first class that was officially went over to what was then called the white school which was high school for me which was 8th grade. Although there were other Black students there before I got there that had matriculated into the system before it was really official. Zach: Just to clarify when did you finish at Sunset Hill? Willy: I believe it was 1963. Marquetta: I was 1964 wasn't I? Willy: Must have been. I was the first Black male to go to Straburg High School. Prior to that Fay Mitchell, my sister, Gloria Hess, Priscilla and Angela Alsberry were the first from Strasburg to go to high school. Zach: I found in the records that 1962 was the first year there were any African-American students there and then a few more in 1963 and finally in 1964. Willy: I believe that is right. Marquetta: I know the history. Let me call Susie Gaynor? and I can put my hands on it. If you want there is a whole story about it. Zach: About this? �Marquetta: Her children. Would you like to get a copy? Zach: That would be great. Marquetta: It’s in the closet upstairs. Was it 64? Graduated 69 in 12th. 68 in 11th grade. 67 in 10th grade. 66 in the 9th grade. 65 in the 8th grade. Willy: Because the years, my mind. I started school late because we lived out in the outer part of the county in Lebanon Church. My father worked on a farm. My mom worked on the farm also. We weren't allowed to ride the buses and so I ended up being moved to Strasburg to live with my grandparents, Turner ? and Letha Mitchell, down on B Street. So I stayed there and lived with them and went to school until, seemed like it was. I was at school at Sunset Hills and then we moved to Strasburg I think it was 1956 we moved into town. Zach: I am curious about Strasburg. I know in Woodstock there was a geographic place where most of the African-Americans community lived. But then in Mount Jackson, New Market that was not the case. Was that the case in Strasburg? Willy: Yes. Predominantly was B Street, now it is Branch Street. But it is known now as Alsberry Street was what we called it here up on the hill. That was where Sunset Hills School was. There were Black families up there. Zach: So that area the hill up there around the school was predominantly Black. Willy: With us we lived on A Street which is now Ash Street. It was like 3 families, 3 Black families we lived beside each other there and that was about it. Wasn't too many. Most all the Blacks lived between Branch Street and D Street and what was Alsberry Street. Zach: Now can you talk the restaurants and the theater which I assume were segregated in Strasburg. Talk a little bit about in general about some of your experiences with those. Willy: There were several restaurants in Strasburg at that time of course they were all segregated. But the one that we went to most of the time was Virginia Restaurant. Sager Realty is there now on the corner. But we had to go in the back in the kitchen area and that is where my mother worked as a cook. They had several booths back there and that is where we ate and were served. It wasn't until years later that we allowed to go out front. We were washing windows out front and stuff like that but as far as sitting down and eating we weren't allowed to go out front. And other place was the Tastee Freeze, that was after when integration started we were allowed to go to the Tastee Freeze. But as a young person I really didn't go to any of the other restaurants in town other than that. As far as the theater, we could go to the theater we could go to the theater but you had to sit up in the balcony which was great. We thought it was great! You set and the screen was right in front of you and it was nice. If that was punishment--. The thing was you didn't have the option. But then again we couldn't afford to go to the theater that much. Most of the time it was at Christmas when First Bank used to have Santa Claus and they would give you �a, you would go in and sit on Santa's lap and tell him what you want, and get a bag of hard candy and an orange and a ticket to go to Home Theater. Marquetta: I can't find it. I got to get that stuff together for a Virginia Tech reunion. Zach: I talked to Gloria Stickley and she said something about you all having to start a reunion. I am curious a little bit if you could talk about-- I know you said you were born in Greenville. How did you end up moving from there to Strasburg? Marquetta: Well, long story short, my mother and father, actually my father lived at the time in Washington DC. My mother worked for my father's parents, cleaning their house and that kind of stuff. And so my mother was from Greenville, Tennessee. She had moved from Greenville to Washington DC cleaning homes and doing what was called "days work". In Washington DC "days work", and I did" days work. It was basically Black folks working for white folks cleaning their house. And so my mother basically worked for my grandparents cleaning their house. And so I came along. So my grandparents had property here. The Witheralls, I am a Witherall that is my maiden name. The Witheralls go way back, way, way, back. The family Bible is over there. In Shenandoah County it is spelled three different ways. We are working on that. Because my parents had issues. My grandparents took all of us and brought us here to Strasburg because they had property in Strasburg that was on B Street which is Branch Street now. They used to rent it out to people. I t was like a rental property. So they came here and brought us here and raised us here. That is how Strasburg became my home. And Willy lived in the county and he moved to Strasburg in order to go to school. So that is how I got here. But the Witherall name was already here. Willy: We found out, doing, Marquetta more so than me, with research and everything and talking to the Alsberrys, one of the main reasons that they moved here from the Rappahannock County was so their children could get an education. And because in that particular area they might have to have gone to Manassas. Marquetta: Miles and miles. My dad went to school had to leave here to go to Charlottesville and Manassas to go to school. That was that generation, But now my grandparents were retired teachers of the colored school when they moved here. So that is how we had to do good in school. My grandfather was the schoolteacher, before the Sunset Hill School that was the school over on Queen Street. Pigtail Alley. And then my Auntie, I don't if, I can't remember if Auntie taught at Sunset Hills because she was one of the teachers at Woodstock, at Creekside. I can't confirm Creekside, I just remember Woodstock school. And I think she did do some subbing at _____ Sunset School. But Poppy, my grandfather was the one that taught here, and I know my grandmother subbed here, taught here at Sunset Hills school because they were already retired teachers. Zach: Now talk a little bit about what Sunset Hills Schools was like. I know it was a one room school but I guess just give a description of what the classes were like, if you liked you teachers and just kind of a general overview. �Marquetta: It was a one room school. Coal stove. It was, I won't say it was always warm in terms of temperature though, physical temperature. It was a class divided up in rows by class and what I remember was Mrs. Payne was my teacher. Willy: Dora H. Payne. Marquetta: Dora H. Payne and her sister Mrs. McClain taught in Woodstock. She, I remember so well, because the teachers lived at different houses and ours was the main house. So I remember very well. We hated it. When you had to be at school and then Mrs. Payne followed you home. So the classroom. I liked school. I didn't know how to compare it to any other school. I liked school. I enjoyed school. I excelled in school. So the kids that excelled or did well they taught other kids. I liked that, I liked teaching other kids. So I wasn't the only one. So all the kids that did very well sort of became teacher’s aids in how to teach the other classes which I liked. And then if you really did, it was a really big deal for Mrs. Payne the teacher to take you home to her home in West Virginia for the weekend. So that was like a really big deal so everybody wanted to go home with Mrs. Payne, you know. I liked that. I liked the discipline of learning. The teachers were for me really good. There were some kids who got in trouble or they might not have been but I was one of those kids who was a pretty decent student and I did fine. I enjoyed school. School was fun. We had recess outside. We sang, started every morning with prayer, said the pledge of allegiance to the flag, we sang songs. We sang songs where you moved, we had plays. We had talent shows. My brother and I we had dance talent shows. We had speaking talent shows and I liked it. There was not anything I didn't like about school. But really the part that I did not like, I was like a year ahead of kids my age, because my grandmother did that and I didn't like it because it left me very isolated. I didn't have a clique or group. I knew they liked me and I liked them but I wasn't ever a part of a girlfriend group or that kind of stuff. That is the part I didn't like. I liked going home for lunch. His brother Ray, after school, everybody when run and jump on his bike, he must have sometimes it seemed like he had six kids on his bike, that is an over-exaggeration. But he would stand up, someone would be on the seat, someone would be on the fender, and someone would be on the handle bars. And we would come down that hill, pop the tracks but my grandmother never knew about that. There was a bully in school. was Raymond. He used to chase us home every day. Not every day but often enough for my grandmother to come out of the house with a broom and chase him down the street. I enjoyed school and I looked forward to going to Frederick Douglas school because the kids who were older than me they caught the bus right down the street at Mrs. Riffey's(?) house on Bragg Street and I used to watch the teenage girls with their pretty skirts, and their oxford shoes and their transistor radios. And sometimes they would be dancing all the new dances before they got on the bus and I could not wait to be a part of that. Mrs. Payne always would say, "I am going to get you ready to go to the white school. You have to get you ready to go to the white school. And you are going to learn this. Because I don't want to be bad-mouthed when you get to the white school. And I remember that. I remember that was her thing. And my grandmother was there too. I wasn't looking forward to going to the white school; I was looking forward to going to Frederick Douglas where all the other Black kids went. But I enjoyed school. I liked being a student. I was happy in school. Even when I looked back today I think we got a better education than those most kids today. And we got extra when we got home because I lived with teachers. We had to go upstairs. Everybody got an extra dose of education. My grandfather was an invalid who was a teacher also. He taught history. So after we ate dinner, Poppy had to go over our �lessons from school. He would always teach us something different, extra multiplication tables, addition, subtraction tables, all of the stuff. I so when I think about kids today, education, it is just real different. But I got a good education. It may have been in a secondary school. It may have been with books that were thrown in the trash can at the end of school. They were. We knew that. I may have been with tiny pieces of chalk but the discipline was there and the hunger for a good education was there. There wasn't a parent that I knew that didn't want that for any of their kids. Would you agree with that? Willy: Yes Marquetta; Very serious about education. Willy: She was. Marquetta: But most parents were. There were some kids that didn't go astray. You got the strap on your hand. You had to hold out your hand. Willy: It was a ruler. Marquetta: Yes but Mrs. Payne used a strap too. Willy: That wasn't on your hand that was on your back. Marquetta: No. Mrs. Payne used a strap on my sister. Willy: She used it on my buttocks. Marquetta: Yes but she used a strap on my sister's hands. I never will forget that. Anyway, so that is my experience. Willy: You went through a lot when you were a kid. Basically when I started school I always felt, "why am I here". I got an education but I don't think I got what I should have. I think my father was a better teacher on things like math. My father only had a sixth grade education but if you would say Dad what is 6 x 9 plus 4 plus 3 he would have it for you. And I look at the math that we did and the math that these children are doing now and we had it really easy. But even the math that we had was not as simple as the math that my father had. Everything was simplified. My experience in school it really was not that bad. They did away with the coal stove and got an oil stove. The oil tank was in the back at one of the ends and it was an old stove. When I was in the seventh grade I got the job as being the stoky??. So I had to be there early in the morning and make sure the fire was going. That was a lot of responsibility. I had to make sure the fire was going, the door was open and the lights were on. I got paid by the county $12 a month. And sometimes in the evening we had this oil that would come in these 5 gallon cans and we had to mop it on the floors to keep all the dust down so I used to have to do that and get some of the guys to help me. Make sure that the chalkboard was all cleaned. I think about the rainy days when we couldn't go out. We had like shuffleboard and horseshoes and things like that. At times like Christmas I believe the kids from, I don't �remember if it was from the high school or the middle school and they would bring us textbooks that they were finished with them and we still have some with their names in them. Because some of those books were just tossed and just like the guys down at Morrison's??. I found with Marquetta's name in it and my brother. We had one bully and I beat the bully. Yeah, I stopped that. He became one of my best friends. It was a lot of --it was the first place I had ever met a Puerto Rican. They moved in to our community, we don't know where they moved from, so they had to go to our school also. So that was very cool. And I think that even today I like to meet people from different cultures. It is really interesting. But when graduation night came I was the only one who graduated. It wasn't but one person in that class that graduated because I started late and I might have been back a little bit. But I was the only one who received a diploma that time. I remember my father meetings downtown with the school board, I remember vaguely sketches of that. Getting things ____ and going thru a lot of arguments and discussions about us children integrating the school. Marquetta: Mongolizing. They didn't want their kids mongolizing. Willy: That was my father. My father was told that, "you know, Wilbur, your son and my daughter, they are young and they might mongolize." Well my father said, "My son is not a dog and neither is your daughter and they will be just fine." My dad was very calm type person, but my mother was a little fiery. But my dad was very calm type guy in the essence of "we can talk about this." But his mind was set that we were going to Strasburg High School. But Sunset Hill it was good. But I look at education now, some of the things, the tutors, and I believe if I would have had access to something like that I would have made out much better. But I haven't done bad. Marquetta: No. You haven't. But you know our parents did not want us to go to Frederick Douglas at all. At all. And like his parents were involved in that movement. My grandparents were involved in that movement for integration. I don't know, I don't remember I was just a kid. I don't remember any parent wanting their kid to get on that bus to Frederick Douglas. I didn't because of all the teenage girls________. Sometimes you want to have that bus______ to Winchester because sometimes you had to tie the door closed with rope. Zach: Yes, I have heard something about that. In fact, it wasn't the bus that went to Frederick Douglas but I have talked to a guy that rode the bus to Lucy Sims in Harrisonburg and he had some pretty vivid descriptions about the bus. Marquetta: Now my grandmother taught at Lucy Sims in Harrisonburg. She was in Rockingham County before she came here. Our parents generally, it was a move, an initiative, by the Black folks in this town they not be segregated, that they go to the so-called white schools in this town. Zach: Now what do you all think was the big push for that movement because and I think that was unique because both the people from the South end of the county in Woodstock have told me that they don't remember there being a movement to get-- they have told that they were sent to Central because their parents--it was more of a personal reason. �Marquetta & Willy: Yes. Same thing. It wasn't like Warren County. That was not Shenandoah County. Marquetta: I would agree with the lower end of Shenandoah County. It was more of parents getting together as parents taking a personal responsibility to verbalize that their kids are going. Willy: It took courage. With all the turmoil that was going around in the United States at that time. Marquetta: Civil Rights Movement. Willy: And all that stuff. A lot of the parents, my dad and mom, with 5th and 6th grade educations, work for the rest of your life, all your life, but they did have a lot of common sense. And just kind of pulling everything together. But the thing also, when you had the PTA meetings parents were there. The teachers and the parents they had a communication. My parents would go the school and set down or Ms. Payne would come to the house, or Ms Trusdale, and set down or take them out to dinner. There was a respect there, it was almost like family. They watched out more for each other, a community type thing. Our parents did. Marquetta: I think what really helped with that, all the teachers from the different sections of Shenandoah County, we imported our own teachers you see. And so all the teachers lived with the parents of the students in the community so they got to be a part of the community. I like I said most of the time it was at my house, Mrs. Payne. Mrs. Trusdale I don't know where she stayed. Willey: She stayed over at Mrs.Hilda Mormon's?? house. Marquetta: That's right. I can't remember where Ms. Bremitt?? stayed. Willey: I think it was all in the same place. Marquetta: But it was all in the same community. If they stayed for the weekend they would, most of the time they didn't, they went home except for the ones, Ms.Trudale and Ms. Burge were from North Carolina and South Carolina. So if they stayed for the weekend they would go to our church. So they were in our churches, they were in our schools, they were in our communities. And the community you have to remember we were a very small Black community so everybody knew everybody. So they became a part of our family, they were like family and they were treated very well. Now at our house we had to give up a whole room and there were five kids in our house. Some of us had to sleep downstairs. But a room was given up in our house for that teacher. And so the teachers at that time were very lofty in terms of their position in those communities. So the definition of a teacher is very different than a definition of a teacher today. There was so much respect and so much reverence. They weren't God but they were up there. Okay. So that made a big difference. Everybody was involved in making sure these kids were ready for the white school. It was a drive without saying it was a drive. It was a move without defining it as a move. It just happened because of all the lives that just melded together. �Willey: But there were meetings with the Board of Education and some of the town leaders also and things of that nature also. Marquetta: And sometimes those things were pretty trying. Willey: Yes but it wasn't to the point where they were burning crosses in the yard, killing cattle and stuff like that. Marquetta: One of the reasons why it didn't happen. I don't know all the reasons. I know the first day of school was very scary. The schools were segregated but we were on a Black bus. I remember a teacher standing up there and saying "We don't want to teach you". I never will forget that. I never will forget that. And so I was scared most of my school year. I talked to my colleagues, my high school people. They forget that I didn't start-- most of them, who were white they forget that I wasn't in elementary school with them. But I was afraid most of the time in high school. All it had to do with braces a lot of it did but I was just a tiny little. But when I graduated I only weighted 95 and I was just extremely shy. And then with everything that was going on around Front Royal and the Civil Rights stuff was just scary but I didn't know these white kids. But some of the white kids were just as scared as I was because they didn't know these Black kids. You know I was scared. I was_____.People thought I was shy that is true but I appeared more shy because I did not open my mouth but I was scared. You didn't know_______with what you were seeing on TV. Daddy was scared for us. So I never really thought about that until Willey just said. It took a lot of courage for our parents to push us to go to that school because nobody knew what was going to happen. I never thought about that before. But I know Daddy was scared. I remember seeing the look on his face. I knew he was scared. Willey: I remember the first time they, they being Mom & Dad, took me to Strasburg High School. It was before school and we met with Mr. Stanley Dellinger and he gave us tour and I was in awe of it. It was so big. And the gym. I told Daddy it was the biggest gym I had ever seen. He said, Where have you ever seen a gym before?" I still remember that. But my only thing was after I started school at Strasburg High School it was lot of times by yourself especially in the 8th grade, it was just like people didn't talk that much to you. Teachers seemed like they were kind of offish. Some of them were. So I just kind of muddled thru. And one day I was, I guess I was in the 9th grade and I was putting something in my locker and Larry Bright came up to me and said,"Hey man want to play football?" And I said I don't know I never played football before. He said why don't you come out and try, what the heck? And I said "Sure". Marquetta: I didn't know that. Willey: I call Doc Bright today. But then athletes that is a different, whole different thing, you earned their respect. It was really good to me because that way I could put a whole lot of negative energy into the football thing, and later on track. I was on the first wrestling team. Marquetta: You weren't the "Big Star". �Willey: I was just an athlete. Marquetta: He is so modest. Willey: But to me it was just like you could really get rid of a lot of stuff, stress by just channeling it differently and that is just what I did. I just channeled it all into the next play and that just keeps down a whole lot of anger and stuff like that. But even looking back now, with hormones running wild when you are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. I don't see how Mr. Proctor?? put up with it. But you know what I am saying. It was good. Sports was good. I have always said they are three men my life that have made me the man I am today. That was Jesus Christ, Wibert Mitchell, and Glenn Proctor. In that order. Zach: And do you think that being on the sports teams helped you be accepted by the student population better? Willey: Yes. Just like my dear, little wife there, she was on the debating team. Marquetta: I didn't have a sports bone in my body. Willey: But everyone doesn't do sports. I have been doing a little debating but you know ________. She was on it. What she did was challenge all hers to education. Me I wished I would have done more education. But it all worked out. But yes, but you know the thing that gets me today. It's just like two months ago I had a young man come up to me, well he's in his forties now I guess, and you never know what impression you give, you never know how people are going to read you. And he comes up to me and he said, “Brother I want to tell you something." And I said,” what’s that?" He said," You were always my hero". And I said,” Your hero, how is that?" He said I like the way you always carried yourself. You never got angry or mad. You never did things that would cause embarrassment to your family or school. He said, 'That's the way I wanted to be. I wanted to be just like that. So the way you carried yourself that is the way I carried myself. So I went Wow. And that is when I was in the 11th or 12th grade. And when you hear a full grown man tell you that. And he was the second one that told me that. And me I am going Wow! And I just treat people like I wanted to be treated with respect. Zach: Now I am curious for both of you when you went to the all white or predominantly white schools, how did, first of all how did the students react, were there any issues there? And how did the teachers and administrators react? You talked a little bit about that. But I have quite a variety of stories on both those types of populations and I wanted to get your reactions were. Willey: Her class had a different well it's like what Marquetta said, it was all 30 or 40 children just went to the middle school and the high school then. Marquetta: My father had a real hard time at the middle school. Did he go to the middle school? He had a hard time. Willey: I hear that. But when I went to the high school I didn't. The only thing I ran into was people would not talk to you. Which I was somewhat a loner. I always hunted and fished and �was off to myself. But all that changed. Just like I had a young kid come up to me and say I want to ask you something. And I said, "Yeah what?' He said, "Do you all carry knives' and I said, "No, I don't carry a knife, do you?" And he said, "No, but my mommy and daddy said that all you people all carry knives." I said, “No, not all of us carry knives." But it just with me it was a feeling out of each other. You know what this kid is different. I think by the 9th grade by me doing hunting and fishing and doing sports and doing stuff like that that fit right in with everyone. Zach: With what everybody else did. Willey: Still do, except the hunting part I don't still do that just fish. But as far as fights, I have never been in a fight, cursing and hollering and all that stuff. Other than encouraging someone in football camp or something like that we never had to go thru that. I hear Marquetta’s brother Robert saying this and that. They used to have a lot of fights and things of that nature. One on one type thing. But I never was involved in anything like that. Marquetta: You knew who----. I know my father was a fighter. I was not a fighter. I was always quiet. Willey: Negotiator: Marquetta: Well I feel in negotiating, I just watched. But my brothers had a hard time. Very difficult time. But I could sense things, a very acute sense of things, I knew who didn't want to deal with me and I really didn't care. I take that back, I really did. But I knew because of elementary school ______hear you talk. Because in elementary school I really was not in with a group so I wasn't missing a group. You know how some girls and boys have a clique. I was never in a clique so I never missed a clique. And I didn't have a need. I wished I was. I wished I had a best friend and all that. I really wanted that but I was used to not having that. And with the circumstances I was in I never looked for it. Zach: OK Marquetta: So it was very, very lonely. I couldn't play sports. I tried to play sports. I tried to play basketball. I loved volleyball. Because it worked for Willey. It worked for Edgar. Edgar was in my class. He was another sports star. I mean everybody loved Edgar, everybody loved Russell, everybody loved Willey. The boys they had the sorts. but I didn't have anything. There were some girls that spoke to me, Pat ________? She really liked me and I really liked her. People did seem like they didn't know what to do with me. I wouldn't say there was anybody really nasty to me because I was too shy I really was. Kind of like invisible. As far a relationship with a teacher, Mr. Proctor came from West Virginia. His whole thing about integration/segregation was way different than the way Virginia treated it. And I don't know why but to this day he is one of my best friends. But he would come to me almost every day. I guess he felt sorry for me. I was this tiny, little thing, I looked like I had Ricketts I was so skinny. I must have looked so sick. So I was this invisible, quiet, kind of smart of kid and he could come. But I was so shy. My name was Marquetta Witherall. So some people would come up to me and they would say,” What’s your name?" Huh? I couldn’t even say my own full name. I was too shy to say my own full name. �And he would always check on my every day and he is the one that made me feel like you are going to be Ok. That was Glenn Proctor. He always checked on me. And when I graduated and went to college and would come back home I always sought out Glenn Proctor. There was something about that man. He was just a good man and he understood Black students. I am going to say it like it is. He understood it because he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe what he was seeing. I guess that was how he saw me and to this day he hasn't told me. I need to ask him that when I see him. He took an interest in me but he did. And so he always would check on me. Now the Principal made me feel safe. Mr. Dellinger was our first principal and the reason why stuff didn't pop off at Strasburg High School is because he threw the media out. Willey: He would not allow them in. Marquetta: They were not allowed in. He would not allow them to come in and interview us because that is what the media wanted to do. He said no. He kept the lid on. And so when we had our first reunion at Strasburg Museum we asked him to come and speak with Glenn Proctor. He spoke with the Superintendent of Schools and all that to recognize for the first time in this county that they did exist and you need to honor them. And all our graduates, the wonderful people that taught and the wonderful students that came out of that school. And he spoke about that. So that was my experience. My personality was too shy to start any trouble. But I knew that there was a little trouble in river city with the Cooper boys, my cousins. You don't remember that. Willey: I was gone. Marquetta: You were gone. That was a little bit later. They were my cousins and they were wild but they didn't take any stuff. So whenever stuff happens, up in the mountains and in the hills and the police would_____?. And that is all I am going to say. Willey: The thing that I think about with Mr. Proctor is when we were supposed to play John Mosby. Mr. Proctor got a call from the coach at Mosby and said we will not play you all with the Black players on the team. And Mr. Proctor said then we will just not play you at all. And that is where Mr. Proctor almost lost his job because him and Stanley Dellinger had it out then because Stanley said," Glenn we have a contract. We won't play them next year." I got two young men who are my two of my key players and you are not going to let them go because of these people? It ended up we didn't go but he had to go. And he had to but they lost too. I don't know if it would have made any difference if we were there. Marquetta: You mean the two Black players could not go. Willey: Yes. Leonard Alsberry and myself were not allowed on their field. It was kind of sad. But that side of that county was a whole different mentality. I mean because we played Turner Ashby, Montevideo, Elkton, Stonewall, Central. Marquetta: Warren County was real different. Willey: Yes it was. �Zach: I get that sense especially, get a sense with the different newspapers in the county. The Northern Virginia Daily because they cover Warren County and so I get the sense there completely different than the way the other two papers in the county at that time covered things. Willey: That is the first and last time I have ever been spit on in my life was when we played Warren County in Bing Crosby Stadium. I said I couldn't believe this. It was sad. Really sad. It is hate is what it amounts to. And it is really sad but I looked at it then as I look at it now. You have an option. You could go out there and fight and bust your knuckles and use all that stuff. Or just play duck and let it roll off your back and just play the game. Keep yourself straight, follow the rules and just play the game. Zach: I am curious a little bit about kind of the difference in how people, I don't really want to say the different classes treated you but the different backgrounds. And the reason I say this is one of the things I have gotten is this theme, the more educated people who lived in town treated African-Americans differently than the people who lived like out in the country. And you mentioned that about something happening out in the hills. Did you all have that experience, something similar to that or was it kind of a generic white people treated you? Willey: I think I understand what you are saying. But with me I didn't, it wasn't any different. I can't say there was any difference. Because the guys who lived out in Coal Mine, Star Tannery, Lebanon Church, we all squirrel hunted, target practiced, and groundhog hunted and played football. So it was like we had so much in common. With me it goes back to respect thing. Then again I looked up to guys who were straight A students or on the track team or in class with. Let's say on the track team for example, "Willey, just do what you need to do, you need to work on your start, you need to get in your box this way." It was positive. In my mind I can't think of negative stuff. No matter A student or straight B student. That was with me. Marquetta: I have never really thought about that way. In high school. Willey: Let's see you had your valedictorian. ?? Marquetta: It was Marcy who was white and the valedictorian. I had this conversation with her 5 or 6 years ago. I used to say to her ", Marcy do you ever notice that when you look at those class pictures that I was always somewhere around you not just because you were________?? It was because you were supposed to be the smartest so I was always watching you because I wanted to beat you at everything you did", and I told her that. She said, “I didn't know that". I just wanted to beat her, but I know that I had to work 3 times as hard as she did to get the grade and I knew that. And I considered myself a good student but I wanted to be a great student. I wanted to show her, really what it was. It wasn't about her personally what I wanted to do and how lonely it was. She cried, we had lunch together; we are in the same industry. I said, "What's the matter?" And she said,"Marquetta, I was just as lonely as you were. I was a teenage kid without friends. She was. The smartest girl in school. A lot of people were jealous of her, didn't want to be around her. And I understood her, and for the first time I understood her. And so we had a good cry and lunch. But I understood that. So for me I never thought about it like that in high school. And only having an adult perspective on it, not a high school perspective. And my adult perspective, when I look back over my adult years I would say if I were to look at it like that in terms of grades of �people like you say. I would say there is no difference. Racism is racism. If you have an education you think you had it better were high fancy words. If you don't have the fancy words or haven't learned them it is pretty__________which is what I appreciate about it. Where an education will teach you how to practice racism like this. At the same time you are doing like this. Where we are now, "I don't like you_____OK. It is the same thing. That is my adult perspective. My high school perspective, I don't know that I thought about it. I was just trying to survive. Willey: But I see what you were doing. See where I was using sports, you were using education. You just said, Marcy was good at this, this and this and I can do this too. It is like channeling. Marquetta: It is. That is what I was doing. If I think of it now, I felt you know I can do exactly what she is doing. For a while there I thought I couldn't but I watched her. And Joe_______, he is a sweetie pie, but Marcy I didn't get, but she was like the smartest kid, and there was that female thing going on. Willey: Oh yeah! Marquetta: You have to realize I could do what she did but I had to study real hard. And I would never go to school without having anything unanswered. If I had to stay home my grandma would have to make me go to bed. And sometimes I would not get the last answer but I would get up in the morning real early because I would never go to school without having all my answers done. I am still am that way. But that was me. And I couldn't participate in a lot of after school activities because there were five of us and I had to help my grandparents take care of my brothers and sisters. My dad______. I wasn't involved in a whole lot of social stuff. But I was always envious, not jealous, but envious that other kids like Willey and Edgar could do that and I didn't. I didn't have a social life. It's true. Willey: I was going to the Tastee-Freeze, eating 15 of them quarter hamburgers and drinking a milkshake. Marquetta: You see we were never allowed. I could go to the Tastee-Freeze with permission but we never allowed to go with a group of kids anywhere like that. We were pretty protective in our family. They didn't let us, you couldn’t get in a car and go someplace and nobody knew where you were. First of all we didn't have a car to get in. So we were not allowed to roan like that. Willey: Not like we were. Marquetta: That's right. You all roamed. We were kind of protected. Zach: Now I am kind of curious. You mentioned about the principal not letting the media in. From your perspective what was the media trying to accomplish? Because I have read the newspaper accounts of integration and things and they didn't do very much coverage of any of Shenandoah County and mean there were short articles like on Page 2. What were they trying to accomplish with that do you think? �Willey: Well I think personally, it would have been other areas and how everything was put on the tube, on the radio and some of the newspapers. They wanted to keep all the drama down and put a lid on it. "We are going to do this but without all the drama". Marquetta: Like Front Royal was having. Willey: Or other places. _______, we don't want to do that here. We think we can just keep it down. Keep these kids going to school. Not going to have a bunch of pictures taken and all that stuff. Keep it low key. Marquetta: Violence. Willey: And I think that what it was. And it was a transition. I can remember it just like yesterday, Lawrence, I can't remember Lawrence's last name. I remember getting off the school bus, and walking in the school. I was just like the first day was just like all the other days. It was nobody hardly speaking to you. But it was just like walk on in. Try to find my locker and my classes. You know it was nobody saying anything. Every once in a while someone would say good morning. But everything was just-- and that transition was just smooth and that was what Mr. Dellinger wanted. Marquetta: He didn’t want any trouble. Willey: He thought the media might have wanted-Marquetta: To stir it up. Willey: Inadvertently maybe but some people. Sometimes when I look on the television, I try not to watch too much news but some of it can really get you riled up. Keep it down. Not put it out there for people but keep it at a lower roar. Marquetta: Because there are people enough around to stir a pot. He was just doing his, he was just keeping it down. He was doing his job. He was protecting his students. And he took it a step further. And a lot of people don't know about this. He said it for the first time when we had that celebration at the Museum. People don't know he came up to Sunset Hills School. He didn't have to do that. And he talked to those teachers and knew how he could make the transition smoother for us. He didn't have to do that. That how the visits started, pre-school, making sure that we kids could have a chance to go over to the school before the school started so we could have a chance to see what a locker is. We didn't know what a locker is. What's a cafeteria? What are you talking about? Willey: And a gym? Marquetta: Do you really get in a line with a tray for lunch? Willey: You don't have to bring a bag?? �Marquetta: You don't have to bring a bag! He made sure that happened. For him to have that foresight, in that day and that time. That was a heck of a thing to do to have the forethought for kids who know nothing about a locker and a cafeteria and how to matriculate into classes. And then we had two floors! We had one room school first with a water fountain on the outside that froze in the winter. Willey: Yeah but they moved it inside. Marquetta: Then we had an add on and there was a bathroom, one for girls and one boys. We were like in heaven then. Willey: No johnnies! Marquetta: That's right! So to go to a school with two floors and showers in the locker room. So he came to the school and worked out a plan with the teachers to make sure we were afforded that. So to me that was protecting and taking care of your kids. Not just the boys the boys in trouble but helping us thru the transition. Zach: That's interesting because the same year that you started at Strasburg I talked to a student who started at Stonewall the same year and she gave a completely different story of her first day. She said when they got there the media was there. She said they had police there and there was a lot of excitement and a lot of drama. So that is a very interesting contrast. Marquetta: You see I remember the teachers saying we don't want _______? You see his memory of it is different from mine. He wasn't on my bus. Willey: I was on a whole different set-up. Remember I started before you did. Marquetta. It makes a difference. Willey:But also, we were talking about this last week. Some of the teachers that used to snub us. Not really be very friendly. Or some of them that we see now are some of our best friends. It is awesome. Marquetta: My first client that they gave me, called me at my house on a Saturday. Willey: You want to say where you work? Marquetta: Oh, I am a financial advisor with _________. My office is right downtown. My first $350,000 check OK, I am thinking, ______?? First of all it is a production thing, especially the first one. You got to make money. And so I know that they have money but I know who he is. One of the biggest racists in town. Because everybody in Strasburg at the time was a racist. So I called him, Mr. So & So. I said, "This is what I'm doing. I know you know me because you know we know we know each other and we don't have to go any further, but this is what I'm �doing. He let me in his house. Which shocked me. These kids used to call us "N" words and we used to call them "C" words. I was never a fighter. My brothers and sisters, they would be fighting going to school, fighting coming home from school. So I talked to him a good six months. But I am persistent and quiet. So one day he called me here at this house and said," May I come to your office?" And I said well of course I will open for you. How much is your check? He said, "$350,000." First of all I was shaking all the way down to the office. And I to this day I can't tell you why he gave me that check or why he trusted me. Willey: Maybe it is because he trusted you. Marquetta: Yes. But what I am saying is that he was one of the worst. And that was _______?_. And his daughter was in my class and we had a few "nice" words. I didn't let people run over me. I didn't have a nasty mouth. I didn't curse. But by the time I got finished with you, you knew you were cursed out by the time you got home. Because my grandmother taught me how to do that. Willey: Nancy Nice. Marquetta: Nice Nancy. Because she taught us nice, you know, that you had to stand up. You don't pick a fight. You walk away. Every time we did.______________? Here's what you say. And she's even very nice. And so you know I still remember him handing me that check. It was almost like he didn't know what he was doing. So I took the check and put it in his account. That was my first real big account. And when that happened to me I knew I was going to be okay in Strasburg. As long as I truly respect people. If you don't respect me that's your issue. But I am going to respect you, and if you don't respect me then we don't have any business together. And that was a turning point for me, a good turning point for my business as an adult. I knew that I could handle Strasburg, I do all right in Strasburg. And so he was not a very nice person. Truly he was not. So anyway that's one of my adult stories coming from a child in school with his daughter, who taught his kids how to do the "N" word. I know he did. So that is how people can change. If he can change, anybody can change. Zach: Now I am curious you knew one of them I guess, the teachers at the Black Schools. Number one I can't figure out what happened to them after the Black schools. Willey: That's a good question! Marquetta: We are still looking. Willey: I know one Mrs. Eudora H. Payne (?) went back to Ranson, West Virgina and she had two daughters and that is where she lived until she passed. Which hasn't been too awful many years ago. Marquetta: Now we don't know what happened to her daughters. Willey: George Heller. �Marquetta: I had a crush on George Heller(?) Willey: George Heller and then Mrs. Burbidge(?) We have been trying to see if we can find them. But we have had people try to see if they can find them. From what we understand, the county they don't keep records but for a certain amount of time. And someone brought us some stuff that had been throwed out in the trash. Marquetta: It was Judy Jackson. It was at John-Manville? In the trash. It was Mr. Howard's attendance book and it had my name and all my sisters and brothers name in it. Where he was from, his address in Roanoke and everything. We had not been able to find him. He went to Virginia State College where I went. Of course years before and I find it in the college book, but he has probably passed away. Willey: But those three we been trying to locate, Richmond, all those things trying to locate them. Marquetta: And one minister, Rev. Greer (?) he was your relative, but that was before our time. That was Sunset Hills School before our time. But we have a list of teachers that we have accumulated thru the older citizens that were there thru the younger citizens that were there. And as much information as we were able to get but we are still working on it. Willey: It is at the museum. Marquetta: I know we have it upstairs. Zach: I was curious they were working for the county as teachers and then the schools integrated and I am sure, and this is the case almost everywhere, that they are just no longer teachers here in the county. Even at the time you couldn't have a Black teacher teaching the white kids. You know. So what happened to them? Willey: That's a good question. We wondered that too. But think back when we made that transition, all our focus was on the now and never even thought about what happened to the teachers. But we were kids. But as adults we wanted to look up and find out where they went and what happened to them. But the only one we know of was Mrs. Payne. Marquetta: It was there focus. They were so focused on us doing well at the white school when you get there. That was the push. I want you to do well. I want you to show them. That was the push and then they just left. Zach: There was one and I forget her name now was the teacher at Creekside. Marquetta: Mrs. McClain, that was Mrs. Payne's sister. Zach: The Church there in Woodstock, Mt Zion, they know where she is buried. She went back to West Virginia. But I don't know anything about the ones that were the teachers in Strasburg. �Willey: We were hoping but people just trashed their records. That is so sad. So much history just trashed. Marquetta: We made a copy of George Heller's (?) book that was found. It is there. It looks like the original. We did a real good job. I never thought about it like that. That is an excellent question. I feel guilty we didn't think about the teachers but we were kids. Willey: And then there was that push. Get out of school. What are you going to do when you get out of school? Some of you are going to go in the military; some of you are going to college. That was a chaotic time in a sense. Marquetta: It was a traumatic time. Willey: But I look at now and I look back at then. That isn’t too bad compared to some of the stuff that goes on now. Marquetta: Even with all that stuff I think we were focused. We were a lot more focused. And then at the same time there were things motivating you. There was the Civil Rights, there were leaders, and there were people there to guide you in your community. The community mobilized where there was a local mobilization. There was the push. There is not that anymore. We knew that education or something beyond high school you were going to need, vocational school, college, military. But I don't know I think our focus was more simple. Do you know what I mean than what the kids are experiencing today? Maybe I am wrong I don't know. Zach: And then looking after integration, after the schools integrated, I guess maybe we can do it like we did at the beginning where I ask you to talk for a minute or so about how things were kind of focusing on Strasburg after integration progressed. Racism continues but you know what, how has that change maybe, what the community was like and how that changed a little bit in terms of how people dealt with race and things like that. Were there any bad instances after integration comes at the schools? I hope that makes sense. Willey: All I can say is that at schools, then again, I think some of the guys from what I understand after the school was started after all that you did have some fights. You have boys or some girls you are going to have conflicts no matter what. But it seemed like it was somewhat of an acceptance of what we had come thru as a community. but yet as some of the ladies in the church used to say, you still got some of the ______?? in the back thinking the old ways and that is on both sides of the race. “We shouldn't be over there or we shouldn't be at that school and of course the swimming pool thing. Some of the Black people won’t let their children go to the swimming pool today. Because of something that happened back then. We weren't allowed to go then. But sometimes you got to move on a little bit because hate begets hate. My thinking is I have a granddaughter that goes to the pool. We have a granddaughter that goes to the pool. I would not allow her to swim in the river. I had a ball. All my friends were there because the poor white families couldn't afford $100 a summer couldn't afford that. So we were swimming at that river together and having a ball. But maybe that answers a part of your question. �Zach: I think it does. You know that was the kind of what I was looking for the overall. Willey: You still got hate in there. You still got, you will for a long time. Marquetta: That is an excellent question because I was asked that question and had an opportunity to answer that question by someone white just the other day. And here is how I answered that question. Well the question was proposed a little bit differently. Is there still racism? The person had had a conversation with someone Black in the community and felt _______? wasn't done because of racism. Do you still think that exists in Strasburg? Well of course. Well really? If you, in order for you to mention that to me because I am Black then you know it must be something like that. You are an intelligent person I know that and I like you. I don't know you that well, but in order for you to ask me that question you know there must be. But the person wasn't quite sure how to deal with it. And I said this," Couple of things you do not want to do. Do not appoint a person in Strasburg who is Black to deal with Black stuff. Do not do that. Because there you are ______? it. But you know it happened here and I know you do because you asked me about it. Look at it as an opportunity to say to the person, "Do you think is racism?" Don't be afraid to say the word race or racism. You need to understand that anybody past 50 or 60 or so in this town had had to deal with that and that is part of who they are. And so because it is part of who they are it is going to affect how they respond to certain things. And so if you really want to do a great job don't deny what they are thinking. They are opening up an invitation for you to talk about it. It is just a dialogue in and of itself. It is a step forward. You must take the step forward. You must take the step forward. It's okay to talk about race. Let us not pretend that it is insignificant and it does not exist. And when you take that step, you are taking that step forward every time even if you still end up disagreeing about the issue you are talking about. But to deny is the worst mistake you could ever make. There is racism just like Willey said was a part of many white folk here. Racism was a part of many Black folk here not that there is a whole bunch of Black folk. But there is. And we can only take a step forward when we are in dialogue together. If I can be of any help, I will be glad to be of any help to anyone who wants to have a conversation but I don't represent Black people. And that is where a lot of white people make a mistake. And so that was an excellent question you asked and that is my answer to that. Willey: And you are sticking to it. Zach: There is one last question and I am glad you brought this up. The Strasburg pool. I know the story of the Woodstock pool integrating. Do you all know anything in relation to the Strasburg pool and segregation and integration? Willey: Only thing I know was you had to pay a fee. Marquetta: It was to keep us out. And riffraff too. You know what I mean. That was the way it was seen. Willey: Well that was the way it was set up too. Every time I think about that I think about a story that Glenn Proctor told. It was this young boy named Carter Alsberry. He used to play with Glenn's children okay. One day Glenn was going to take his boys to the pool. Carter asked, �"Coach Mr. Proctor you going to the pool?' Coach said, " Oh no, we just, it is time for you to go home and we are going to take these boys for a walk etc." Because coach didn't want to break his heart to tell because he was going to take his boys to the pool and he wasn't allowed to go. So that being said time went on. But right down the road on Battlefield, Gypsy Falls, Carter with some other boys was down there swimming when he drowned. And that haunted Mr. Proctor for so long. Here he is one of the leaders in his community, wanting to do the right thing and get along and here is this young man who his sons played with and he thought a lot of drowned because there was no other place really with a lifeguard or something like that for him o go to. So I think he withdrawed his children from it then. But that being said it got to the point where as people where not supporting it and it was getting into disrepair so ended up having to open up everything and we got to get this thing fixed or we are going to have to shut down. Marquetta: And then they started letting the riffraff and the Blacks in. Willey: No, anyone that wanted to go there they were allowed in. Marquetta: Daddy didn't let us go. But I really wasn't interested in because I was not a swimmer. So it didn't bother me at all. But for a long time, I was very angry about that because there were a lot of Black people who needed to learn how to swim and wanted to swim and weren't allowed. So as a young woman who went to a Black college specifically and my Daddy hated it. I was coming back with like A's_________________. I really did. My dad was so afraid. And I remember being very angry about that. But you know you get over stuff. But I don't like the history. I was in the pool with Bree honey. I was in the pool with Bree. Willey: This woman can't swim a bit. But she went to college and took a class on swimming and passed. Marquetta: It was only 2 credits. I went off the board and everything. Willey: But then all of a sudden it is like "I can't swim. Marquetta: But then I go to the park because I helped paint the park and it is not right for me not to go to the park when I want my family to go to the park. And so we had our first reunion of _______school, Queen Street in the park and you know it was so neat, everybody in town came and it wasn't just a Black reunion. It was a Strasburg thing. Willey: And that is the way it is supposed to be. Marquetta: And that is where dialogue like yours with different people and dialogue with each other would happen. Dialogue changes things because it gets you to know you a bit better."Oh yeah well he is an Okay guy. Things grow and change. But we have a thing at the Museum. It was the largest attendance. And was the thing to celebrate the Black schools. It was the largest attendance of any event in the museum. Because it was dialogue. And people had a chance to cry with us. We weren't the only people crying. Strasburg cried. That is why I am here in Strasburg now. It is not the most perfect place. �Willey: There is no perfect place. Marquetta: There is no perfect place. Willey: Maybe Myrtle Beach. Outer Banks. Zach: Maybe perfect weather. Marquetta: Strasburg is what it is. It does not pretend to be something it is not. When it is time to rally, it rallies. And good people in it. And for the most part, when there is a dialogue even if it comes to fist-fighting sometime, we dialogue. Or the town council does sometimes. Willey: The thing that amazes me is, see where do you live? Zach: Woodstock. Willey: Woodstock, Edinburg, Mount Jackson, Strasburg, all of them are so different. So different. You know I mean. It is amazing. Even Maurertown, Toms Brook. We are all right here in the same sock, but we don't fit the same shoe. But we are all so different and that is what makes it so unique in my opinion. Marquetta: It has been quite a journey and we are all allright with it. Zach: That's good. Willey: But one of the things I didn't like about the swimming pool thing. After I went into the Navy and we did all this swimming stuff. It's chlorine! Now of course we thought the river was the greatest thing since sliced bread, now we find out it is so polluted. It's awful. Marquetta and I have been blessed to live through all that we have gone thru and we look back and just think about some of the things that we have seen. Some of the players that have been in this drama that we lived and it has been pretty unique. One of the things I would change is I would take a typing class my last year. (Laughter follows) Zach: I get a lot of people that say that and they are usually guys. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zachary Hottel Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Willy Mitchell Marquetta Mitchell Location The location of the interview Strasburg VA Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Oral History Transcript 16-0004 Interviewee: Laura Marquetta Mitchell & Willy Mitchell Interviewer: Zach Hottel Subject: Integration, Segregation, Strasburg (Va); Shenandoah County Public Schools (Va) February 9, 2016 Zach: This is Zach Hottel. It is February 9th. I am here to do an oral history interview on integration and segregation. Marquetta: My name is Marquetta Mitchell. I always like to say Laura Marquetta Mitchell and Zach is in our home here with my husband and me to talk about segregation and integration. We welcome him in our home and we glad for the opportunity. Zach: Thank you. Willy: My name Wilbert "Willy" Mitchell. I was born on August 3, 1948. Went to Sunset Hill Elementary School and shortly after graduation went to Strasburg High School. Marquetta: I actually was born in Greenville, Tennessee. I always say that because my mother happened to be in Greenville at the time and that was her hometown. I call Strasburg my home though. I attended Sunset Hills School until I graduated from the seventh grade. When I graduated from the seventh grade that was when the segregated schools here, that was the last year of the segregated school. So I was in the first class that was officially went over to what was then called the white school which was high school for me which was 8th grade. Although there were other Black students there before I got there that had matriculated into the system before it was really official. Zach: Just to clarify when did you finish at Sunset Hill? Willy: I believe it was 1963. Marquetta: I was 1964 wasn't I? Willy: Must have been. I was the first Black male to go to Straburg High School. Prior to that Fay Mitchell, my sister, Gloria Hess, Priscilla and Angela Alsberry were the first from Strasburg to go to high school. Zach: I found in the records that 1962 was the first year there were any African-American students there and then a few more in 1963 and finally in 1964. Willy: I believe that is right. Marquetta: I know the history. Let me call Susie Gaynor? and I can put my hands on it. If you want there is a whole story about it. Zach: About this? Marquetta: Her children. Would you like to get a copy? Zach: That would be great. Marquetta: It’s in the closet upstairs. Was it 64? Graduated 69 in 12th. 68 in 11th grade. 67 in 10th grade. 66 in the 9th grade. 65 in the 8th grade. Willy: Because the years, my mind. I started school late because we lived out in the outer part of the county in Lebanon Church. My father worked on a farm. My mom worked on the farm also. We weren't allowed to ride the buses and so I ended up being moved to Strasburg to live with my grandparents, Turner ? and Letha Mitchell, down on B Street. So I stayed there and lived with them and went to school until, seemed like it was. I was at school at Sunset Hills and then we moved to Strasburg I think it was 1956 we moved into town. Zach: I am curious about Strasburg. I know in Woodstock there was a geographic place where most of the African-Americans community lived. But then in Mount Jackson, New Market that was not the case. Was that the case in Strasburg? Willy: Yes. Predominantly was B Street, now it is Branch Street. But it is known now as Alsberry Street was what we called it here up on the hill. That was where Sunset Hills School was. There were Black families up there. Zach: So that area the hill up there around the school was predominantly Black. Willy: With us we lived on A Street which is now Ash Street. It was like 3 families, 3 Black families we lived beside each other there and that was about it. Wasn't too many. Most all the Blacks lived between Branch Street and D Street and what was Alsberry Street. Zach: Now can you talk the restaurants and the theater which I assume were segregated in Strasburg. Talk a little bit about in general about some of your experiences with those. Willy: There were several restaurants in Strasburg at that time of course they were all segregated. But the one that we went to most of the time was Virginia Restaurant. Sager Realty is there now on the corner. But we had to go in the back in the kitchen area and that is where my mother worked as a cook. They had several booths back there and that is where we ate and were served. It wasn't until years later that we allowed to go out front. We were washing windows out front and stuff like that but as far as sitting down and eating we weren't allowed to go out front. And other place was the Tastee Freeze, that was after when integration started we were allowed to go to the Tastee Freeze. But as a young person I really didn't go to any of the other restaurants in town other than that. As far as the theater, we could go to the theater we could go to the theater but you had to sit up in the balcony which was great. We thought it was great! You set and the screen was right in front of you and it was nice. If that was punishment--. The thing was you didn't have the option. But then again we couldn't afford to go to the theater that much. Most of the time it was at Christmas when First Bank used to have Santa Claus and they would give you a, you would go in and sit on Santa's lap and tell him what you want, and get a bag of hard candy and an orange and a ticket to go to Home Theater. Marquetta: I can't find it. I got to get that stuff together for a Virginia Tech reunion. Zach: I talked to Gloria Stickley and she said something about you all having to start a reunion. I am curious a little bit if you could talk about-- I know you said you were born in Greenville. How did you end up moving from there to Strasburg? Marquetta: Well, long story short, my mother and father, actually my father lived at the time in Washington DC. My mother worked for my father's parents, cleaning their house and that kind of stuff. And so my mother was from Greenville, Tennessee. She had moved from Greenville to Washington DC cleaning homes and doing what was called "days work". In Washington DC "days work", and I did" days work. It was basically Black folks working for white folks cleaning their house. And so my mother basically worked for my grandparents cleaning their house. And so I came along. So my grandparents had property here. The Witheralls, I am a Witherall that is my maiden name. The Witheralls go way back, way, way, back. The family Bible is over there. In Shenandoah County it is spelled three different ways. We are working on that. Because my parents had issues. My grandparents took all of us and brought us here to Strasburg because they had property in Strasburg that was on B Street which is Branch Street now. They used to rent it out to people. I t was like a rental property. So they came here and brought us here and raised us here. That is how Strasburg became my home. And Willy lived in the county and he moved to Strasburg in order to go to school. So that is how I got here. But the Witherall name was already here. Willy: We found out, doing, Marquetta more so than me, with research and everything and talking to the Alsberrys, one of the main reasons that they moved here from the Rappahannock County was so their children could get an education. And because in that particular area they might have to have gone to Manassas. Marquetta: Miles and miles. My dad went to school had to leave here to go to Charlottesville and Manassas to go to school. That was that generation, But now my grandparents were retired teachers of the colored school when they moved here. So that is how we had to do good in school. My grandfather was the schoolteacher, before the Sunset Hill School that was the school over on Queen Street. Pigtail Alley. And then my Auntie, I don't if, I can't remember if Auntie taught at Sunset Hills because she was one of the teachers at Woodstock, at Creekside. I can't confirm Creekside, I just remember Woodstock school. And I think she did do some subbing at _____ Sunset School. But Poppy, my grandfather was the one that taught here, and I know my grandmother subbed here, taught here at Sunset Hills school because they were already retired teachers. Zach: Now talk a little bit about what Sunset Hills Schools was like. I know it was a one room school but I guess just give a description of what the classes were like, if you liked you teachers and just kind of a general overview. Marquetta: It was a one room school. Coal stove. It was, I won't say it was always warm in terms of temperature though, physical temperature. It was a class divided up in rows by class and what I remember was Mrs. Payne was my teacher. Willy: Dora H. Payne. Marquetta: Dora H. Payne and her sister Mrs. McClain taught in Woodstock. She, I remember so well, because the teachers lived at different houses and ours was the main house. So I remember very well. We hated it. When you had to be at school and then Mrs. Payne followed you home. So the classroom. I liked school. I didn't know how to compare it to any other school. I liked school. I enjoyed school. I excelled in school. So the kids that excelled or did well they taught other kids. I liked that, I liked teaching other kids. So I wasn't the only one. So all the kids that did very well sort of became teacher’s aids in how to teach the other classes which I liked. And then if you really did, it was a really big deal for Mrs. Payne the teacher to take you home to her home in West Virginia for the weekend. So that was like a really big deal so everybody wanted to go home with Mrs. Payne, you know. I liked that. I liked the discipline of learning. The teachers were for me really good. There were some kids who got in trouble or they might not have been but I was one of those kids who was a pretty decent student and I did fine. I enjoyed school. School was fun. We had recess outside. We sang, started every morning with prayer, said the pledge of allegiance to the flag, we sang songs. We sang songs where you moved, we had plays. We had talent shows. My brother and I we had dance talent shows. We had speaking talent shows and I liked it. There was not anything I didn't like about school. But really the part that I did not like, I was like a year ahead of kids my age, because my grandmother did that and I didn't like it because it left me very isolated. I didn't have a clique or group. I knew they liked me and I liked them but I wasn't ever a part of a girlfriend group or that kind of stuff. That is the part I didn't like. I liked going home for lunch. His brother Ray, after school, everybody when run and jump on his bike, he must have sometimes it seemed like he had six kids on his bike, that is an over-exaggeration. But he would stand up, someone would be on the seat, someone would be on the fender, and someone would be on the handle bars. And we would come down that hill, pop the tracks but my grandmother never knew about that. There was a bully in school. was Raymond. He used to chase us home every day. Not every day but often enough for my grandmother to come out of the house with a broom and chase him down the street. I enjoyed school and I looked forward to going to Frederick Douglas school because the kids who were older than me they caught the bus right down the street at Mrs. Riffey's(?) house on Bragg Street and I used to watch the teenage girls with their pretty skirts, and their oxford shoes and their transistor radios. And sometimes they would be dancing all the new dances before they got on the bus and I could not wait to be a part of that. Mrs. Payne always would say, "I am going to get you ready to go to the white school. You have to get you ready to go to the white school. And you are going to learn this. Because I don't want to be bad-mouthed when you get to the white school. And I remember that. I remember that was her thing. And my grandmother was there too. I wasn't looking forward to going to the white school; I was looking forward to going to Frederick Douglas where all the other Black kids went. But I enjoyed school. I liked being a student. I was happy in school. Even when I looked back today I think we got a better education than those most kids today. And we got extra when we got home because I lived with teachers. We had to go upstairs. Everybody got an extra dose of education. My grandfather was an invalid who was a teacher also. He taught history. So after we ate dinner, Poppy had to go over our lessons from school. He would always teach us something different, extra multiplication tables, addition, subtraction tables, all of the stuff. I so when I think about kids today, education, it is just real different. But I got a good education. It may have been in a secondary school. It may have been with books that were thrown in the trash can at the end of school. They were. We knew that. I may have been with tiny pieces of chalk but the discipline was there and the hunger for a good education was there. There wasn't a parent that I knew that didn't want that for any of their kids. Would you agree with that? Willy: Yes Marquetta; Very serious about education. Willy: She was. Marquetta: But most parents were. There were some kids that didn't go astray. You got the strap on your hand. You had to hold out your hand. Willy: It was a ruler. Marquetta: Yes but Mrs. Payne used a strap too. Willy: That wasn't on your hand that was on your back. Marquetta: No. Mrs. Payne used a strap on my sister. Willy: She used it on my buttocks. Marquetta: Yes but she used a strap on my sister's hands. I never will forget that. Anyway, so that is my experience. Willy: You went through a lot when you were a kid. Basically when I started school I always felt, "why am I here". I got an education but I don't think I got what I should have. I think my father was a better teacher on things like math. My father only had a sixth grade education but if you would say Dad what is 6 x 9 plus 4 plus 3 he would have it for you. And I look at the math that we did and the math that these children are doing now and we had it really easy. But even the math that we had was not as simple as the math that my father had. Everything was simplified. My experience in school it really was not that bad. They did away with the coal stove and got an oil stove. The oil tank was in the back at one of the ends and it was an old stove. When I was in the seventh grade I got the job as being the stoky??. So I had to be there early in the morning and make sure the fire was going. That was a lot of responsibility. I had to make sure the fire was going, the door was open and the lights were on. I got paid by the county $12 a month. And sometimes in the evening we had this oil that would come in these 5 gallon cans and we had to mop it on the floors to keep all the dust down so I used to have to do that and get some of the guys to help me. Make sure that the chalkboard was all cleaned. I think about the rainy days when we couldn't go out. We had like shuffleboard and horseshoes and things like that. At times like Christmas I believe the kids from, I don't remember if it was from the high school or the middle school and they would bring us textbooks that they were finished with them and we still have some with their names in them. Because some of those books were just tossed and just like the guys down at Morrison's??. I found with Marquetta's name in it and my brother. We had one bully and I beat the bully. Yeah, I stopped that. He became one of my best friends. It was a lot of --it was the first place I had ever met a Puerto Rican. They moved in to our community, we don't know where they moved from, so they had to go to our school also. So that was very cool. And I think that even today I like to meet people from different cultures. It is really interesting. But when graduation night came I was the only one who graduated. It wasn't but one person in that class that graduated because I started late and I might have been back a little bit. But I was the only one who received a diploma that time. I remember my father meetings downtown with the school board, I remember vaguely sketches of that. Getting things ____ and going thru a lot of arguments and discussions about us children integrating the school. Marquetta: Mongolizing. They didn't want their kids mongolizing. Willy: That was my father. My father was told that, "you know, Wilbur, your son and my daughter, they are young and they might mongolize." Well my father said, "My son is not a dog and neither is your daughter and they will be just fine." My dad was very calm type person, but my mother was a little fiery. But my dad was very calm type guy in the essence of "we can talk about this." But his mind was set that we were going to Strasburg High School. But Sunset Hill it was good. But I look at education now, some of the things, the tutors, and I believe if I would have had access to something like that I would have made out much better. But I haven't done bad. Marquetta: No. You haven't. But you know our parents did not want us to go to Frederick Douglas at all. At all. And like his parents were involved in that movement. My grandparents were involved in that movement for integration. I don't know, I don't remember I was just a kid. I don't remember any parent wanting their kid to get on that bus to Frederick Douglas. I didn't because of all the teenage girls________. Sometimes you want to have that bus______ to Winchester because sometimes you had to tie the door closed with rope. Zach: Yes, I have heard something about that. In fact, it wasn't the bus that went to Frederick Douglas but I have talked to a guy that rode the bus to Lucy Sims in Harrisonburg and he had some pretty vivid descriptions about the bus. Marquetta: Now my grandmother taught at Lucy Sims in Harrisonburg. She was in Rockingham County before she came here. Our parents generally, it was a move, an initiative, by the Black folks in this town they not be segregated, that they go to the so-called white schools in this town. Zach: Now what do you all think was the big push for that movement because and I think that was unique because both the people from the South end of the county in Woodstock have told me that they don't remember there being a movement to get-- they have told that they were sent to Central because their parents--it was more of a personal reason. Marquetta & Willy: Yes. Same thing. It wasn't like Warren County. That was not Shenandoah County. Marquetta: I would agree with the lower end of Shenandoah County. It was more of parents getting together as parents taking a personal responsibility to verbalize that their kids are going. Willy: It took courage. With all the turmoil that was going around in the United States at that time. Marquetta: Civil Rights Movement. Willy: And all that stuff. A lot of the parents, my dad and mom, with 5th and 6th grade educations, work for the rest of your life, all your life, but they did have a lot of common sense. And just kind of pulling everything together. But the thing also, when you had the PTA meetings parents were there. The teachers and the parents they had a communication. My parents would go the school and set down or Ms. Payne would come to the house, or Ms Trusdale, and set down or take them out to dinner. There was a respect there, it was almost like family. They watched out more for each other, a community type thing. Our parents did. Marquetta: I think what really helped with that, all the teachers from the different sections of Shenandoah County, we imported our own teachers you see. And so all the teachers lived with the parents of the students in the community so they got to be a part of the community. I like I said most of the time it was at my house, Mrs. Payne. Mrs. Trusdale I don't know where she stayed. Willey: She stayed over at Mrs.Hilda Mormon's?? house. Marquetta: That's right. I can't remember where Ms. Bremitt?? stayed. Willey: I think it was all in the same place. Marquetta: But it was all in the same community. If they stayed for the weekend they would, most of the time they didn't, they went home except for the ones, Ms.Trudale and Ms. Burge were from North Carolina and South Carolina. So if they stayed for the weekend they would go to our church. So they were in our churches, they were in our schools, they were in our communities. And the community you have to remember we were a very small Black community so everybody knew everybody. So they became a part of our family, they were like family and they were treated very well. Now at our house we had to give up a whole room and there were five kids in our house. Some of us had to sleep downstairs. But a room was given up in our house for that teacher. And so the teachers at that time were very lofty in terms of their position in those communities. So the definition of a teacher is very different than a definition of a teacher today. There was so much respect and so much reverence. They weren't God but they were up there. Okay. So that made a big difference. Everybody was involved in making sure these kids were ready for the white school. It was a drive without saying it was a drive. It was a move without defining it as a move. It just happened because of all the lives that just melded together. Willey: But there were meetings with the Board of Education and some of the town leaders also and things of that nature also. Marquetta: And sometimes those things were pretty trying. Willey: Yes but it wasn't to the point where they were burning crosses in the yard, killing cattle and stuff like that. Marquetta: One of the reasons why it didn't happen. I don't know all the reasons. I know the first day of school was very scary. The schools were segregated but we were on a Black bus. I remember a teacher standing up there and saying "We don't want to teach you". I never will forget that. I never will forget that. And so I was scared most of my school year. I talked to my colleagues, my high school people. They forget that I didn't start-- most of them, who were white they forget that I wasn't in elementary school with them. But I was afraid most of the time in high school. All it had to do with braces a lot of it did but I was just a tiny little. But when I graduated I only weighted 95 and I was just extremely shy. And then with everything that was going on around Front Royal and the Civil Rights stuff was just scary but I didn't know these white kids. But some of the white kids were just as scared as I was because they didn't know these Black kids. You know I was scared. I was_____.People thought I was shy that is true but I appeared more shy because I did not open my mouth but I was scared. You didn't know_______with what you were seeing on TV. Daddy was scared for us. So I never really thought about that until Willey just said. It took a lot of courage for our parents to push us to go to that school because nobody knew what was going to happen. I never thought about that before. But I know Daddy was scared. I remember seeing the look on his face. I knew he was scared. Willey: I remember the first time they, they being Mom & Dad, took me to Strasburg High School. It was before school and we met with Mr. Stanley Dellinger and he gave us tour and I was in awe of it. It was so big. And the gym. I told Daddy it was the biggest gym I had ever seen. He said, Where have you ever seen a gym before?" I still remember that. But my only thing was after I started school at Strasburg High School it was lot of times by yourself especially in the 8th grade, it was just like people didn't talk that much to you. Teachers seemed like they were kind of offish. Some of them were. So I just kind of muddled thru. And one day I was, I guess I was in the 9th grade and I was putting something in my locker and Larry Bright came up to me and said,"Hey man want to play football?" And I said I don't know I never played football before. He said why don't you come out and try, what the heck? And I said "Sure". Marquetta: I didn't know that. Willey: I call Doc Bright today. But then athletes that is a different, whole different thing, you earned their respect. It was really good to me because that way I could put a whole lot of negative energy into the football thing, and later on track. I was on the first wrestling team. Marquetta: You weren't the "Big Star". Willey: I was just an athlete. Marquetta: He is so modest. Willey: But to me it was just like you could really get rid of a lot of stuff, stress by just channeling it differently and that is just what I did. I just channeled it all into the next play and that just keeps down a whole lot of anger and stuff like that. But even looking back now, with hormones running wild when you are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. I don't see how Mr. Proctor?? put up with it. But you know what I am saying. It was good. Sports was good. I have always said they are three men my life that have made me the man I am today. That was Jesus Christ, Wibert Mitchell, and Glenn Proctor. In that order. Zach: And do you think that being on the sports teams helped you be accepted by the student population better? Willey: Yes. Just like my dear, little wife there, she was on the debating team. Marquetta: I didn't have a sports bone in my body. Willey: But everyone doesn't do sports. I have been doing a little debating but you know ________. She was on it. What she did was challenge all hers to education. Me I wished I would have done more education. But it all worked out. But yes, but you know the thing that gets me today. It's just like two months ago I had a young man come up to me, well he's in his forties now I guess, and you never know what impression you give, you never know how people are going to read you. And he comes up to me and he said, “Brother I want to tell you something." And I said,” what’s that?" He said," You were always my hero". And I said,” Your hero, how is that?" He said I like the way you always carried yourself. You never got angry or mad. You never did things that would cause embarrassment to your family or school. He said, 'That's the way I wanted to be. I wanted to be just like that. So the way you carried yourself that is the way I carried myself. So I went Wow. And that is when I was in the 11th or 12th grade. And when you hear a full grown man tell you that. And he was the second one that told me that. And me I am going Wow! And I just treat people like I wanted to be treated with respect. Zach: Now I am curious for both of you when you went to the all white or predominantly white schools, how did, first of all how did the students react, were there any issues there? And how did the teachers and administrators react? You talked a little bit about that. But I have quite a variety of stories on both those types of populations and I wanted to get your reactions were. Willey: Her class had a different well it's like what Marquetta said, it was all 30 or 40 children just went to the middle school and the high school then. Marquetta: My father had a real hard time at the middle school. Did he go to the middle school? He had a hard time. Willey: I hear that. But when I went to the high school I didn't. The only thing I ran into was people would not talk to you. Which I was somewhat a loner. I always hunted and fished and was off to myself. But all that changed. Just like I had a young kid come up to me and say I want to ask you something. And I said, "Yeah what?' He said, "Do you all carry knives' and I said, "No, I don't carry a knife, do you?" And he said, "No, but my mommy and daddy said that all you people all carry knives." I said, “No, not all of us carry knives." But it just with me it was a feeling out of each other. You know what this kid is different. I think by the 9th grade by me doing hunting and fishing and doing sports and doing stuff like that that fit right in with everyone. Zach: With what everybody else did. Willey: Still do, except the hunting part I don't still do that just fish. But as far as fights, I have never been in a fight, cursing and hollering and all that stuff. Other than encouraging someone in football camp or something like that we never had to go thru that. I hear Marquetta’s brother Robert saying this and that. They used to have a lot of fights and things of that nature. One on one type thing. But I never was involved in anything like that. Marquetta: You knew who----. I know my father was a fighter. I was not a fighter. I was always quiet. Willey: Negotiator: Marquetta: Well I feel in negotiating, I just watched. But my brothers had a hard time. Very difficult time. But I could sense things, a very acute sense of things, I knew who didn't want to deal with me and I really didn't care. I take that back, I really did. But I knew because of elementary school ______hear you talk. Because in elementary school I really was not in with a group so I wasn't missing a group. You know how some girls and boys have a clique. I was never in a clique so I never missed a clique. And I didn't have a need. I wished I was. I wished I had a best friend and all that. I really wanted that but I was used to not having that. And with the circumstances I was in I never looked for it. Zach: OK Marquetta: So it was very, very lonely. I couldn't play sports. I tried to play sports. I tried to play basketball. I loved volleyball. Because it worked for Willey. It worked for Edgar. Edgar was in my class. He was another sports star. I mean everybody loved Edgar, everybody loved Russell, everybody loved Willey. The boys they had the sorts. but I didn't have anything. There were some girls that spoke to me, Pat ________? She really liked me and I really liked her. People did seem like they didn't know what to do with me. I wouldn't say there was anybody really nasty to me because I was too shy I really was. Kind of like invisible. As far a relationship with a teacher, Mr. Proctor came from West Virginia. His whole thing about integration/segregation was way different than the way Virginia treated it. And I don't know why but to this day he is one of my best friends. But he would come to me almost every day. I guess he felt sorry for me. I was this tiny, little thing, I looked like I had Ricketts I was so skinny. I must have looked so sick. So I was this invisible, quiet, kind of smart of kid and he could come. But I was so shy. My name was Marquetta Witherall. So some people would come up to me and they would say,” What’s your name?" Huh? I couldn’t even say my own full name. I was too shy to say my own full name. And he would always check on my every day and he is the one that made me feel like you are going to be Ok. That was Glenn Proctor. He always checked on me. And when I graduated and went to college and would come back home I always sought out Glenn Proctor. There was something about that man. He was just a good man and he understood Black students. I am going to say it like it is. He understood it because he couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe what he was seeing. I guess that was how he saw me and to this day he hasn't told me. I need to ask him that when I see him. He took an interest in me but he did. And so he always would check on me. Now the Principal made me feel safe. Mr. Dellinger was our first principal and the reason why stuff didn't pop off at Strasburg High School is because he threw the media out. Willey: He would not allow them in. Marquetta: They were not allowed in. He would not allow them to come in and interview us because that is what the media wanted to do. He said no. He kept the lid on. And so when we had our first reunion at Strasburg Museum we asked him to come and speak with Glenn Proctor. He spoke with the Superintendent of Schools and all that to recognize for the first time in this county that they did exist and you need to honor them. And all our graduates, the wonderful people that taught and the wonderful students that came out of that school. And he spoke about that. So that was my experience. My personality was too shy to start any trouble. But I knew that there was a little trouble in river city with the Cooper boys, my cousins. You don't remember that. Willey: I was gone. Marquetta: You were gone. That was a little bit later. They were my cousins and they were wild but they didn't take any stuff. So whenever stuff happens, up in the mountains and in the hills and the police would_____?. And that is all I am going to say. Willey: The thing that I think about with Mr. Proctor is when we were supposed to play John Mosby. Mr. Proctor got a call from the coach at Mosby and said we will not play you all with the Black players on the team. And Mr. Proctor said then we will just not play you at all. And that is where Mr. Proctor almost lost his job because him and Stanley Dellinger had it out then because Stanley said," Glenn we have a contract. We won't play them next year." I got two young men who are my two of my key players and you are not going to let them go because of these people? It ended up we didn't go but he had to go. And he had to but they lost too. I don't know if it would have made any difference if we were there. Marquetta: You mean the two Black players could not go. Willey: Yes. Leonard Alsberry and myself were not allowed on their field. It was kind of sad. But that side of that county was a whole different mentality. I mean because we played Turner Ashby, Montevideo, Elkton, Stonewall, Central. Marquetta: Warren County was real different. Willey: Yes it was. Zach: I get that sense especially, get a sense with the different newspapers in the county. The Northern Virginia Daily because they cover Warren County and so I get the sense there completely different than the way the other two papers in the county at that time covered things. Willey: That is the first and last time I have ever been spit on in my life was when we played Warren County in Bing Crosby Stadium. I said I couldn't believe this. It was sad. Really sad. It is hate is what it amounts to. And it is really sad but I looked at it then as I look at it now. You have an option. You could go out there and fight and bust your knuckles and use all that stuff. Or just play duck and let it roll off your back and just play the game. Keep yourself straight, follow the rules and just play the game. Zach: I am curious a little bit about kind of the difference in how people, I don't really want to say the different classes treated you but the different backgrounds. And the reason I say this is one of the things I have gotten is this theme, the more educated people who lived in town treated African-Americans differently than the people who lived like out in the country. And you mentioned that about something happening out in the hills. Did you all have that experience, something similar to that or was it kind of a generic white people treated you? Willey: I think I understand what you are saying. But with me I didn't, it wasn't any different. I can't say there was any difference. Because the guys who lived out in Coal Mine, Star Tannery, Lebanon Church, we all squirrel hunted, target practiced, and groundhog hunted and played football. So it was like we had so much in common. With me it goes back to respect thing. Then again I looked up to guys who were straight A students or on the track team or in class with. Let's say on the track team for example, "Willey, just do what you need to do, you need to work on your start, you need to get in your box this way." It was positive. In my mind I can't think of negative stuff. No matter A student or straight B student. That was with me. Marquetta: I have never really thought about that way. In high school. Willey: Let's see you had your valedictorian. ?? Marquetta: It was Marcy who was white and the valedictorian. I had this conversation with her 5 or 6 years ago. I used to say to her ", Marcy do you ever notice that when you look at those class pictures that I was always somewhere around you not just because you were________?? It was because you were supposed to be the smartest so I was always watching you because I wanted to beat you at everything you did", and I told her that. She said, “I didn't know that". I just wanted to beat her, but I know that I had to work 3 times as hard as she did to get the grade and I knew that. And I considered myself a good student but I wanted to be a great student. I wanted to show her, really what it was. It wasn't about her personally what I wanted to do and how lonely it was. She cried, we had lunch together; we are in the same industry. I said, "What's the matter?" And she said,"Marquetta, I was just as lonely as you were. I was a teenage kid without friends. She was. The smartest girl in school. A lot of people were jealous of her, didn't want to be around her. And I understood her, and for the first time I understood her. And so we had a good cry and lunch. But I understood that. So for me I never thought about it like that in high school. And only having an adult perspective on it, not a high school perspective. And my adult perspective, when I look back over my adult years I would say if I were to look at it like that in terms of grades of people like you say. I would say there is no difference. Racism is racism. If you have an education you think you had it better were high fancy words. If you don't have the fancy words or haven't learned them it is pretty__________which is what I appreciate about it. Where an education will teach you how to practice racism like this. At the same time you are doing like this. Where we are now, "I don't like you_____OK. It is the same thing. That is my adult perspective. My high school perspective, I don't know that I thought about it. I was just trying to survive. Willey: But I see what you were doing. See where I was using sports, you were using education. You just said, Marcy was good at this, this and this and I can do this too. It is like channeling. Marquetta: It is. That is what I was doing. If I think of it now, I felt you know I can do exactly what she is doing. For a while there I thought I couldn't but I watched her. And Joe_______, he is a sweetie pie, but Marcy I didn't get, but she was like the smartest kid, and there was that female thing going on. Willey: Oh yeah! Marquetta: You have to realize I could do what she did but I had to study real hard. And I would never go to school without having anything unanswered. If I had to stay home my grandma would have to make me go to bed. And sometimes I would not get the last answer but I would get up in the morning real early because I would never go to school without having all my answers done. I am still am that way. But that was me. And I couldn't participate in a lot of after school activities because there were five of us and I had to help my grandparents take care of my brothers and sisters. My dad______. I wasn't involved in a whole lot of social stuff. But I was always envious, not jealous, but envious that other kids like Willey and Edgar could do that and I didn't. I didn't have a social life. It's true. Willey: I was going to the Tastee-Freeze, eating 15 of them quarter hamburgers and drinking a milkshake. Marquetta: You see we were never allowed. I could go to the Tastee-Freeze with permission but we never allowed to go with a group of kids anywhere like that. We were pretty protective in our family. They didn't let us, you couldn’t get in a car and go someplace and nobody knew where you were. First of all we didn't have a car to get in. So we were not allowed to roan like that. Willey: Not like we were. Marquetta: That's right. You all roamed. We were kind of protected. Zach: Now I am kind of curious. You mentioned about the principal not letting the media in. From your perspective what was the media trying to accomplish? Because I have read the newspaper accounts of integration and things and they didn't do very much coverage of any of Shenandoah County and mean there were short articles like on Page 2. What were they trying to accomplish with that do you think? Willey: Well I think personally, it would have been other areas and how everything was put on the tube, on the radio and some of the newspapers. They wanted to keep all the drama down and put a lid on it. "We are going to do this but without all the drama". Marquetta: Like Front Royal was having. Willey: Or other places. _______, we don't want to do that here. We think we can just keep it down. Keep these kids going to school. Not going to have a bunch of pictures taken and all that stuff. Keep it low key. Marquetta: Violence. Willey: And I think that what it was. And it was a transition. I can remember it just like yesterday, Lawrence, I can't remember Lawrence's last name. I remember getting off the school bus, and walking in the school. I was just like the first day was just like all the other days. It was nobody hardly speaking to you. But it was just like walk on in. Try to find my locker and my classes. You know it was nobody saying anything. Every once in a while someone would say good morning. But everything was just-- and that transition was just smooth and that was what Mr. Dellinger wanted. Marquetta: He didn’t want any trouble. Willey: He thought the media might have wanted-- Marquetta: To stir it up. Willey: Inadvertently maybe but some people. Sometimes when I look on the television, I try not to watch too much news but some of it can really get you riled up. Keep it down. Not put it out there for people but keep it at a lower roar. Marquetta: Because there are people enough around to stir a pot. He was just doing his, he was just keeping it down. He was doing his job. He was protecting his students. And he took it a step further. And a lot of people don't know about this. He said it for the first time when we had that celebration at the Museum. People don't know he came up to Sunset Hills School. He didn't have to do that. And he talked to those teachers and knew how he could make the transition smoother for us. He didn't have to do that. That how the visits started, pre-school, making sure that we kids could have a chance to go over to the school before the school started so we could have a chance to see what a locker is. We didn't know what a locker is. What's a cafeteria? What are you talking about? Willey: And a gym? Marquetta: Do you really get in a line with a tray for lunch? Willey: You don't have to bring a bag?? Marquetta: You don't have to bring a bag! He made sure that happened. For him to have that foresight, in that day and that time. That was a heck of a thing to do to have the forethought for kids who know nothing about a locker and a cafeteria and how to matriculate into classes. And then we had two floors! We had one room school first with a water fountain on the outside that froze in the winter. Willey: Yeah but they moved it inside. Marquetta: Then we had an add on and there was a bathroom, one for girls and one boys. We were like in heaven then. Willey: No johnnies! Marquetta: That's right! So to go to a school with two floors and showers in the locker room. So he came to the school and worked out a plan with the teachers to make sure we were afforded that. So to me that was protecting and taking care of your kids. Not just the boys the boys in trouble but helping us thru the transition. Zach: That's interesting because the same year that you started at Strasburg I talked to a student who started at Stonewall the same year and she gave a completely different story of her first day. She said when they got there the media was there. She said they had police there and there was a lot of excitement and a lot of drama. So that is a very interesting contrast. Marquetta: You see I remember the teachers saying we don't want _______? You see his memory of it is different from mine. He wasn't on my bus. Willey: I was on a whole different set-up. Remember I started before you did. Marquetta. It makes a difference. Willey:But also, we were talking about this last week. Some of the teachers that used to snub us. Not really be very friendly. Or some of them that we see now are some of our best friends. It is awesome. Marquetta: My first client that they gave me, called me at my house on a Saturday. Willey: You want to say where you work? Marquetta: Oh, I am a financial advisor with _________. My office is right downtown. My first $350,000 check OK, I am thinking, ______?? First of all it is a production thing, especially the first one. You got to make money. And so I know that they have money but I know who he is. One of the biggest racists in town. Because everybody in Strasburg at the time was a racist. So I called him, Mr. So & So. I said, "This is what I'm doing. I know you know me because you know we know we know each other and we don't have to go any further, but this is what I'm doing. He let me in his house. Which shocked me. These kids used to call us "N" words and we used to call them "C" words. I was never a fighter. My brothers and sisters, they would be fighting going to school, fighting coming home from school. So I talked to him a good six months. But I am persistent and quiet. So one day he called me here at this house and said," May I come to your office?" And I said well of course I will open for you. How much is your check? He said, "$350,000." First of all I was shaking all the way down to the office. And I to this day I can't tell you why he gave me that check or why he trusted me. Willey: Maybe it is because he trusted you. Marquetta: Yes. But what I am saying is that he was one of the worst. And that was _______?_. And his daughter was in my class and we had a few "nice" words. I didn't let people run over me. I didn't have a nasty mouth. I didn't curse. But by the time I got finished with you, you knew you were cursed out by the time you got home. Because my grandmother taught me how to do that. Willey: Nancy Nice. Marquetta: Nice Nancy. Because she taught us nice, you know, that you had to stand up. You don't pick a fight. You walk away. Every time we did.______________? Here's what you say. And she's even very nice. And so you know I still remember him handing me that check. It was almost like he didn't know what he was doing. So I took the check and put it in his account. That was my first real big account. And when that happened to me I knew I was going to be okay in Strasburg. As long as I truly respect people. If you don't respect me that's your issue. But I am going to respect you, and if you don't respect me then we don't have any business together. And that was a turning point for me, a good turning point for my business as an adult. I knew that I could handle Strasburg, I do all right in Strasburg. And so he was not a very nice person. Truly he was not. So anyway that's one of my adult stories coming from a child in school with his daughter, who taught his kids how to do the "N" word. I know he did. So that is how people can change. If he can change, anybody can change. Zach: Now I am curious you knew one of them I guess, the teachers at the Black Schools. Number one I can't figure out what happened to them after the Black schools. Willey: That's a good question! Marquetta: We are still looking. Willey: I know one Mrs. Eudora H. Payne (?) went back to Ranson, West Virgina and she had two daughters and that is where she lived until she passed. Which hasn't been too awful many years ago. Marquetta: Now we don't know what happened to her daughters. Willey: George Heller. Marquetta: I had a crush on George Heller(?) Willey: George Heller and then Mrs. Burbidge(?) We have been trying to see if we can find them. But we have had people try to see if they can find them. From what we understand, the county they don't keep records but for a certain amount of time. And someone brought us some stuff that had been throwed out in the trash. Marquetta: It was Judy Jackson. It was at John-Manville? In the trash. It was Mr. Howard's attendance book and it had my name and all my sisters and brothers name in it. Where he was from, his address in Roanoke and everything. We had not been able to find him. He went to Virginia State College where I went. Of course years before and I find it in the college book, but he has probably passed away. Willey: But those three we been trying to locate, Richmond, all those things trying to locate them. Marquetta: And one minister, Rev. Greer (?) he was your relative, but that was before our time. That was Sunset Hills School before our time. But we have a list of teachers that we have accumulated thru the older citizens that were there thru the younger citizens that were there. And as much information as we were able to get but we are still working on it. Willey: It is at the museum. Marquetta: I know we have it upstairs. Zach: I was curious they were working for the county as teachers and then the schools integrated and I am sure, and this is the case almost everywhere, that they are just no longer teachers here in the county. Even at the time you couldn't have a Black teacher teaching the white kids. You know. So what happened to them? Willey: That's a good question. We wondered that too. But think back when we made that transition, all our focus was on the now and never even thought about what happened to the teachers. But we were kids. But as adults we wanted to look up and find out where they went and what happened to them. But the only one we know of was Mrs. Payne. Marquetta: It was there focus. They were so focused on us doing well at the white school when you get there. That was the push. I want you to do well. I want you to show them. That was the push and then they just left. Zach: There was one and I forget her name now was the teacher at Creekside. Marquetta: Mrs. McClain, that was Mrs. Payne's sister. Zach: The Church there in Woodstock, Mt Zion, they know where she is buried. She went back to West Virginia. But I don't know anything about the ones that were the teachers in Strasburg. Willey: We were hoping but people just trashed their records. That is so sad. So much history just trashed. Marquetta: We made a copy of George Heller's (?) book that was found. It is there. It looks like the original. We did a real good job. I never thought about it like that. That is an excellent question. I feel guilty we didn't think about the teachers but we were kids. Willey: And then there was that push. Get out of school. What are you going to do when you get out of school? Some of you are going to go in the military; some of you are going to college. That was a chaotic time in a sense. Marquetta: It was a traumatic time. Willey: But I look at now and I look back at then. That isn’t too bad compared to some of the stuff that goes on now. Marquetta: Even with all that stuff I think we were focused. We were a lot more focused. And then at the same time there were things motivating you. There was the Civil Rights, there were leaders, and there were people there to guide you in your community. The community mobilized where there was a local mobilization. There was the push. There is not that anymore. We knew that education or something beyond high school you were going to need, vocational school, college, military. But I don't know I think our focus was more simple. Do you know what I mean than what the kids are experiencing today? Maybe I am wrong I don't know. Zach: And then looking after integration, after the schools integrated, I guess maybe we can do it like we did at the beginning where I ask you to talk for a minute or so about how things were kind of focusing on Strasburg after integration progressed. Racism continues but you know what, how has that change maybe, what the community was like and how that changed a little bit in terms of how people dealt with race and things like that. Were there any bad instances after integration comes at the schools? I hope that makes sense. Willey: All I can say is that at schools, then again, I think some of the guys from what I understand after the school was started after all that you did have some fights. You have boys or some girls you are going to have conflicts no matter what. But it seemed like it was somewhat of an acceptance of what we had come thru as a community. but yet as some of the ladies in the church used to say, you still got some of the ______?? in the back thinking the old ways and that is on both sides of the race. “We shouldn't be over there or we shouldn't be at that school and of course the swimming pool thing. Some of the Black people won’t let their children go to the swimming pool today. Because of something that happened back then. We weren't allowed to go then. But sometimes you got to move on a little bit because hate begets hate. My thinking is I have a granddaughter that goes to the pool. We have a granddaughter that goes to the pool. I would not allow her to swim in the river. I had a ball. All my friends were there because the poor white families couldn't afford $100 a summer couldn't afford that. So we were swimming at that river together and having a ball. But maybe that answers a part of your question. Zach: I think it does. You know that was the kind of what I was looking for the overall. Willey: You still got hate in there. You still got, you will for a long time. Marquetta: That is an excellent question because I was asked that question and had an opportunity to answer that question by someone white just the other day. And here is how I answered that question. Well the question was proposed a little bit differently. Is there still racism? The person had had a conversation with someone Black in the community and felt _______? wasn't done because of racism. Do you still think that exists in Strasburg? Well of course. Well really? If you, in order for you to mention that to me because I am Black then you know it must be something like that. You are an intelligent person I know that and I like you. I don't know you that well, but in order for you to ask me that question you know there must be. But the person wasn't quite sure how to deal with it. And I said this," Couple of things you do not want to do. Do not appoint a person in Strasburg who is Black to deal with Black stuff. Do not do that. Because there you are ______? it. But you know it happened here and I know you do because you asked me about it. Look at it as an opportunity to say to the person, "Do you think is racism?" Don't be afraid to say the word race or racism. You need to understand that anybody past 50 or 60 or so in this town had had to deal with that and that is part of who they are. And so because it is part of who they are it is going to affect how they respond to certain things. And so if you really want to do a great job don't deny what they are thinking. They are opening up an invitation for you to talk about it. It is just a dialogue in and of itself. It is a step forward. You must take the step forward. You must take the step forward. It's okay to talk about race. Let us not pretend that it is insignificant and it does not exist. And when you take that step, you are taking that step forward every time even if you still end up disagreeing about the issue you are talking about. But to deny is the worst mistake you could ever make. There is racism just like Willey said was a part of many white folk here. Racism was a part of many Black folk here not that there is a whole bunch of Black folk. But there is. And we can only take a step forward when we are in dialogue together. If I can be of any help, I will be glad to be of any help to anyone who wants to have a conversation but I don't represent Black people. And that is where a lot of white people make a mistake. And so that was an excellent question you asked and that is my answer to that. Willey: And you are sticking to it. Zach: There is one last question and I am glad you brought this up. The Strasburg pool. I know the story of the Woodstock pool integrating. Do you all know anything in relation to the Strasburg pool and segregation and integration? Willey: Only thing I know was you had to pay a fee. Marquetta: It was to keep us out. And riffraff too. You know what I mean. That was the way it was seen. Willey: Well that was the way it was set up too. Every time I think about that I think about a story that Glenn Proctor told. It was this young boy named Carter Alsberry. He used to play with Glenn's children okay. One day Glenn was going to take his boys to the pool. Carter asked, "Coach Mr. Proctor you going to the pool?' Coach said, " Oh no, we just, it is time for you to go home and we are going to take these boys for a walk etc." Because coach didn't want to break his heart to tell because he was going to take his boys to the pool and he wasn't allowed to go. So that being said time went on. But right down the road on Battlefield, Gypsy Falls, Carter with some other boys was down there swimming when he drowned. And that haunted Mr. Proctor for so long. Here he is one of the leaders in his community, wanting to do the right thing and get along and here is this young man who his sons played with and he thought a lot of drowned because there was no other place really with a lifeguard or something like that for him o go to. So I think he withdrawed his children from it then. But that being said it got to the point where as people where not supporting it and it was getting into disrepair so ended up having to open up everything and we got to get this thing fixed or we are going to have to shut down. Marquetta: And then they started letting the riffraff and the Blacks in. Willey: No, anyone that wanted to go there they were allowed in. Marquetta: Daddy didn't let us go. But I really wasn't interested in because I was not a swimmer. So it didn't bother me at all. But for a long time, I was very angry about that because there were a lot of Black people who needed to learn how to swim and wanted to swim and weren't allowed. So as a young woman who went to a Black college specifically and my Daddy hated it. I was coming back with like A's_________________. I really did. My dad was so afraid. And I remember being very angry about that. But you know you get over stuff. But I don't like the history. I was in the pool with Bree honey. I was in the pool with Bree. Willey: This woman can't swim a bit. But she went to college and took a class on swimming and passed. Marquetta: It was only 2 credits. I went off the board and everything. Willey: But then all of a sudden it is like "I can't swim. Marquetta: But then I go to the park because I helped paint the park and it is not right for me not to go to the park when I want my family to go to the park. And so we had our first reunion of _______school, Queen Street in the park and you know it was so neat, everybody in town came and it wasn't just a Black reunion. It was a Strasburg thing. Willey: And that is the way it is supposed to be. Marquetta: And that is where dialogue like yours with different people and dialogue with each other would happen. Dialogue changes things because it gets you to know you a bit better."Oh yeah well he is an Okay guy. Things grow and change. But we have a thing at the Museum. It was the largest attendance. And was the thing to celebrate the Black schools. It was the largest attendance of any event in the museum. Because it was dialogue. And people had a chance to cry with us. We weren't the only people crying. Strasburg cried. That is why I am here in Strasburg now. It is not the most perfect place. Willey: There is no perfect place. Marquetta: There is no perfect place. Willey: Maybe Myrtle Beach. Outer Banks. Zach: Maybe perfect weather. Marquetta: Strasburg is what it is. It does not pretend to be something it is not. When it is time to rally, it rallies. And good people in it. And for the most part, when there is a dialogue even if it comes to fist-fighting sometime, we dialogue. Or the town council does sometimes. Willey: The thing that amazes me is, see where do you live? Zach: Woodstock. Willey: Woodstock, Edinburg, Mount Jackson, Strasburg, all of them are so different. So different. You know I mean. It is amazing. Even Maurertown, Toms Brook. We are all right here in the same sock, but we don't fit the same shoe. But we are all so different and that is what makes it so unique in my opinion. Marquetta: It has been quite a journey and we are all allright with it. Zach: That's good. Willey: But one of the things I didn't like about the swimming pool thing. After I went into the Navy and we did all this swimming stuff. It's chlorine! Now of course we thought the river was the greatest thing since sliced bread, now we find out it is so polluted. It's awful. Marquetta and I have been blessed to live through all that we have gone thru and we look back and just think about some of the things that we have seen. Some of the players that have been in this drama that we lived and it has been pretty unique. One of the things I would change is I would take a typing class my last year. (Laughter follows) Zach: I get a lot of people that say that and they are usually guys. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WILLY AND MARQUETTA MITCHELL ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW Subject The topic of the resource Strasburg (Va) Public Schools-Virginia-Strasburg School Integration-Virginia-Strasburg Description An account of the resource Oral history interview featuring Willy and Marquetta Mitchell conducted on February 4, 2016 for the Shenandoah County Library's Black History Month Program. Willy and Marquetta were the first two African American students to attend Strasburg High School. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Zachary Hottel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Shenandoah Voices Oral History Collection <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_UKlORbjhi4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February, 4 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 File Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 16-0004 African Americans Integration Schools Segregation Shenandoah County Virginia https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/b6d16516a0e46ef0d726c0200a901783.jpg 1e222071d4b21fe21544457abe84276a https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/a203466256dadd86c7d243c5ee9656bb.jpg 6d2491371f20166c2383165ca127452b Physical Object An inanimate, three-dimensional object or substance. Note that digital representations of, or surrogates for, these objects should use Moving Image, Still Image, Text or one of the other types. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Duck Artwork by Louis Zeigler Subject The topic of the resource Zeigler, Louis (1923-2001) Shenandoah County (Va) Art Objects Description An account of the resource Art object produced by Louis Zeigler of "Ridgley School" for "Edith." The item is undated. Ridgley School was located in Shenandoah County approximately 1.5 miles east of US Route 11 at the Saumsville Christian Church on what is now Ridgley Road (State Route 661). It was open from 1908 to ca. 1930. Louis Zeigler was born near Woodstock on November 5, 1923 and died on November 6 2001 in Florida. Who Edith was is unknown. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Zeigler, Louis (1923-2001) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Folder 1.14: Duck Artwork, "By Louis Zeigler, Ridgley School," Undated, Susan Holsinger Collection, Truban Archives, Shenandoah County Library, Edinburg, Virginia. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Undated Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative Commons Attribution-Non Commercial (CC-BY-NC) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 19-1127-001 19-1127-002 Art Schools Shenandoah County Virginia Zeigler https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/053030f1c95213e374c2689f109e39eb.pdf 45c54df1aedbf6c05d9905721d5c1fd1 PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chefs See Food Sources Up-Close Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Virginia Daily Newspaper, Page 1 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 22 2015 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/11ac06d39661468ec7dd273633c7fe7e.pdf ac0ed109ff47e678522ef210d09795eb PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Educator Spotlights Love of Agriculture Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Description An account of the resource Newspaper Clipping Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Virginia Daily, A1&A2 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 21 2015 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/f8149604fa9d3ce903306109cb951cbd.pdf edfffc24ab9c89e270afbf09e2ffff5a PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pages from newspapers past Apple Pickers ca 1900 Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Pages from newspapers past Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Free Press Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 20 2005 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/3d47db7cc3a6f4101d348d564368b8bd.pdf d8d387dd3e9b4d3bfb5cf383d9735216 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pages from Newspapers Past Apple Grading ca 1900 Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Pages from newspapers Past Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Free Press Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 14 2005 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/a7ff56ffd2f575f9f99dd8bb42427cd8.pdf c4d76cba93bf432568313e856ce36ea6 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pages from Newspapers Past Grain Elevator Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Pages from Newspapers Past Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Free Press Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1 2004 Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/fd497144a10396dfc913a04c33dc105a.pdf c111c8cc5c09a44dbf64bc0b4791b470 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pages from Newspapers Past: Hugh Morrison Butchering Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Pages from Newspapers Past Morrison, Hugh Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Free Press Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 20 2002 Free Press Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/b7b0f32607d977bce68c430e597f3598.pdf ea9fa3da15719851ead58d006d90521a PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pages from Newspapers Past: Wheat Harvest ca 1900 Subject The topic of the resource Agriculture Pages from Newspapers Past Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Free Press Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1900; published May 29 2003 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Newspaper Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Clipping https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/8098a72bd38d4af2a4ac9dc2aba52eff.pdf 0edc67a74bedbe989854398f391be1aa PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. 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Title A name given to the resource Blue Grass Festival 2015 Subject The topic of the resource American Legion Post #77 Strasburg VA Description An account of the resource An advertisement fora Bluegrass Festival hosted by American Legion Post #77 (Strasburg VA) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Virginia Daily p A10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 1 2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Not to be republished without permission Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Newspaper Clipping Language A language of the resource English https://archives.countylib.org/files/original/9b7014b798f181bbf04b92dd4c1547c5.pdf 0f83e8121da911919bf1cfce8f339af6 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clippings Files Subject The topic of the resource Shenandoah County VA Description An account of the resource A collection of newspaper clippings related to Shenandoah County and the surrounding area Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zachary Hottel Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fisher's Hill Picnic Subject The topic of the resource Fisher's Hill Picnic Description An account of the resource Advertisement for the Fisher's Hill Picnic historic program Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Northern Virginia Daily p A12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Shenandoah County Library Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 27 2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Not to be republished without permission Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Newspaper clipping Language A language of the resource English